Interview with Aaron T. Francis
- AnneIt is August 11th, 2022. This is an interview with Aaron Francis for the Oral History Hub Pilot project. The interviewer is Anne Millar.
- AaronGood afternoon.
- AaronGood afternoon.
- AaronI'm good. How are you doing?
- AnneGood. Thank you. Thank you so much for speaking with me today.
- AaronMy pleasure. Thank you for the opportunity.
- AnneI hope the internet works well. But just let me know if you have any problems hearing me or if it blanks.
- AaronLikewise. Likewise.
- AnneGreat. So if you don't mind, I'll jump right in and just begin by asking you about your family background and if you could talk a little bit about growing up in Waterloo and when you were born.
- AaronSure. My family came here in the mid-1960s. And that was my grandfather Roy, and he came with my grandmother Muriel and their four children. The eldest is my uncle Errol [Starr Francis], whom I'm doing the documentary about. He's a Juno Award winner. He was born in Jamaica, so he emigrated with my grandparents from Jamaica to England. And then his three siblings, my uncles and my mom, were born in England, in Leeds, England. And from Leeds, England -- they were there for about 10 years, and then they moved to Waterloo Region. And then fast forward a bit. I was born in 1980. And I initially -- I was born in Kitchener. I grew up for the most part in Kitchener. But partway through high school, we moved to Waterloo. And that is where I went to high school just down the street from the University of Waterloo at WCI [Waterloo Collegiate Institute]. And so I've kind of grown up always knowing I'd go to University of Waterloo because everyone at WCI wanted to go to UW.
- It was just what you did if you went to WCI.
- AnneOh, wow. Do you know why they came to Canada from England?
- AaronI mean, I think there's a couple of reasons. I think -- okay. I remember my grandfather saying that Leeds was really tough. It was a real -- really tough existence. And this is postwar England. And so that is even why they're able to get into England. All of a sudden, the Commonwealth opened up following the devastation of World War II. And so they were given the opportunity to immigrate. And then I guess my grandfather saw a further opportunity in Canada. I don't -- it's really kind of an ongoing mystery for me, like, why of all places, Kitchener Waterloo. But he was one of the -- I know that there's a history of Black people in Waterloo Region, Canada, of course, predating my family, for sure. But I just -- from what I've come to learn and understand, that in Waterloo Region, they were one of at most a half dozen Black families at that time.
- AnneYes, I read some of your interviews about your project Vintage Black Canada. It was fascinating hearing about your family. And really, just the work your grandfather did was amazing.
- AaronYeah, I was really impressed. I didn't realize it as much as a young kid growing up. I was impressed by his work with COM DEV. And they were building satellites and I remember just reading through the pamphlets or getting to meet Marc Garneau, who was the first Canadian astronaut, getting to meet him at COM DEV and seeing all the -- COM DEV was just a really wild place, you know, biometrics to get in, and this is in the '80s. And I remember him just showing me things that blew my mind, you know, like, oh, this is going to be, you know, going to space, this little component here. I'm like, okay, you know. But it definitely expanded my mind. And that trickled down to the whole family because my uncles were always pretty -- and my mom, of course -- were just open to technological possibility. And yeah.
- AnneAnd you would attribute that to then your grandfather and the work he did?
- AaronYeah, for sure. So yeah, speaking about his work as a photographer, it was something that I came to embrace much later on in my life and came to recognize. I don't think I had sort of the aesthetic intelligence to recognize how wonderful his images were. And maybe also, it just took time for me to step out of the moment. And then looking back, when I found those photos after he passed, looking back, then I could see, oh, wow, these are beautiful moments being captured. And some of them, I just hadn't seen. When he passed, there was, like, just boxes of photos. And I remember rifling through them and being like, oh, my god, this is so beautiful. But I never really associated him with photography in that sense. Like, he always had cameras. He developed film in his basement, so I knew about all of that. But yeah, he came from -- he went to Kingston Technical High School, Kingston, Jamaica, with a welding diploma.
- And he was able to leverage that into satellite engineering.
- AnneThat's amazing. Because he came to Canada with his high school degree.
- AaronYeah, that's it. That's it. He probably showed me his upgraded diploma, which was from Conestoga College. And he only really worked for two companies in Canada. Raytheon, and they're, like, a missile defence contractor. Yeah, Waterloo was just so fascinating. So yeah. Yeah, NORAD weapon systems were being built in Waterloo. My grandfather was involved in that world. And he had this NATO clearance that he was really proud of. And he wouldn't be searched when we'd go to New York. And he just flashed this piece of paper and then they weren't allowed to search his bag. And he had -- literally had a steel suitcase with a handcuff chain to his arm. And he would transport components. And he let us tag along. And there was this -- at the time, COM DEV, I knew, had a second site somewhere in New York. And so we just -- we'd go to New York with him and just wait in the parking lot and he'd go deliver some components.
- And then, you know, then we'd just be able to just have fun in New York City for a little bit.
- AnneDid you feel he had this kind of aura of importance around him then, like getting this kind of really cool technological job?
- AaronOh, yeah. Yeah. And he had definitely the swagger and the attitude. And, you know, I look back at his old photos, and I'm like, oh, he's literally wearing a pinky ring and stuff. I didn't realize he was so cool. But I did realize he was so cool. It was just the norm, because my mom was super cool and just everyone -- every Jamaican in the '80s was super cool. So it just became for me normalized. But definitely, he stood above. But I don't think he was -- he wasn't apart from his peer group. Some of these folks that I -- what I'll call, like, say, uncles or just folks that -- guys that he grew up with, they were all really driven folks. And I've written before or I've said they created a community where none existed in terms of arts and culture.
- And they also had a dedication to, really, Christianity. And so they quite literally, all the components of a community, the arts, the culture, the religion, they brought it with them, they nurtured it, and I think they tried really hard to try to pass it on to the next generation. They would organize events. As a kid, I would dread having to go to the local Caribbean carnivals or local Caribbean picnics that they would organize because then I'd -- they'd make us all race one another. We'd have all these games. But I was never a fast kid, so just -- but you know, they'd hand out ribbons and stuff that and really encourage -- Jamaica is obsessed with track and field. So they’d really encourage that culture. They'd hold their own dances and sell their own food. My grandfather was very much a fan of music.
- So he had a massive record collection, which I also inherited. And so he was, like -- it's easy to say he was a DJ. But I mean, really, it was just normal to have a basement with big speakers that you put up yourself and a massive record collection. I mean, how else are you going to hear music from your community unless you're playing it yourself?
- AnneWithin Canada, too, as well.
- AaronYes. Yes. Precisely. Precisely. Yes. Definitely, there's a -- we would sojourn into Toronto all the time, go to Eglinton West. But that's like -- it's like a world removed. We were in Kitchener-Waterloo so we had to do for ourselves. I still have video footage -- I'll probably post some of it this week on Vintage Black Canada -- but of talent shows in the '80s. And there was this reggae club that was downtown Kitchener. And in this club, we would -- students – not students, but young people would perform. They weren't often -- they weren't just reggae songs. And I remember just witnessing that sort of shift where growing up, all I heard was reggae in the house. And even, my mom is really not a fan of hip hop. Hip hop was too vulgar. And I think a lot of Jamaicans initially were not a fan of the slackness, they would put it, in hip hop. But eventually, those talent shows, you'd be performing Black American music.
- AnneWow. That's amazing. That evolution in terms of music, too, in Canada, it’s its own history as well. What were you like as a child? You said you weren't very good at track and running. But were you artistic very young? How would you characterize yourself?
- AaronYeah. Art was always encouraged in my family. Every person -- essentially my uncles and my mom, they all play instruments. My grandfather played an instrument. So that was pretty normal. Just being myself, six or seven, and watching my uncle on TV at the Junos or at Electric Circus. So being a performer was sort of super normal and I think probably expected. And even I have a cousin, her name is Tasha the Amazon, and she's a female vocalist. And she's Juno nominated more than once and has travelled the world performing her music. And even today, my brother, Adam, is a member of Drake's entourage and is Drake's photographer and that sort of thing. So art was always encouraged. But also technology. So as a kid, I was probably pretty much a nerd. Definitely a bookworm. And I saw the possibilities and so.
- My uncle was reading this thing called Omni magazine. And I'm not sure if you know Omni magazine, but it's like a sci-fi -- it's just a sci-fi magazine in the '80s. You look up Omni magazine, you're going to be like, holy smokes. But I just used to read those as like -- as a six-year-old and just be super fascinated. And so it just expanded my mind. And my grandfather was huge on computers so we had a computer, as long as I can remember, and I used to be able to code in DOS. And we'd have these big books. And that stuff was really, especially in Waterloo region, was really encouraged. One of the original coding books we had was this company called -- it was called Wat Cam. And they just -- they had a programming language that worked with DOS discs. And so I learnt that right away, so I -- every sort of technological jump, I've been able to have a hands-on experience with it. Up until now. I don't know anything now.
- AnneYou're a PhD so it all goes downhill after that.
- AaronFacts.
- AnneDid you know you wanted to go into political science? How did you make that decision?
- AaronI always wanted to be a journalist. And I was part of the school newspaper. And I applied to Ryerson. And I think I like the idea of diplomacy. And I was studying Spanish at the time. And so I remember applying. Okay, let me -- I'll apply to Ryerson, which is where I want to go. Their radio and television program, that was the goal. And then I also applied to something random at U of T. And then I applied to international relations at Glendon Campus. And I heard back to them first and I was all nervous. No one prior to me, at least in my mom's side of the family, had gone to university. And so I just really wanted to just -- so I didn't wait for Ryerson. I think Ryerson, they wanted supplemental materials and by the time they sent that to me, I had already accepted York and my entrance scholarship. And I thought it was a safer bet because even back then, I'd say, that's like '99, 2000, they were saying, oh, newspaper is dead, and the journalism industry is not going to sustain, you know, sustain one economically.
- So I thought, oh, it's a safe bet, I'll work for the government. And I only spent a year in that program. An intense program. It was a French campus. And I was focussing on Latin American politics. And my first year at university, I remember failing two courses. And then the next year, York went on strike, one of these notorious York strikes that, like, oh, this semester is a right off. York has been having these strikes. They wrote off one semester, and then the second semester, it was like, forget this. And I ended up going to -- I had a fulltime job at the biggest music store in Canada at the time, which was HMV. And I was sitting there, just immersed in the -- sort of the renaissance of Toronto's music industry. There hadn't been a Black owned radio station. But when I was living in Toronto and working Toronto, all of a sudden, there was one, and there was a music industry. So I ended up enrolling at this place called Trebas Institute and getting my diploma in entertainment management.
- And I did all sorts of things involved with music for the next five years and just didn't look back at political science.
- AnneWow. So then you're really in this culture that kind of would then be familiar to you because of how you grew up, surrounded by music and kind of these artistic people. And then you make this big decision to go to Waterloo. So how did that happen?
- AaronOh, well -- so let's see. You know what, so maybe -- I think it was probably 2005. A few years after I founded a record label. And I did all these really cool things, a lot of critical acclaim musically, and had been around the cultural leaders of hip hop music and Canada and really being mentored by them. But I was super broke. And so I had a friend that was in Taiwan. And she was, like, well, why don't you come and stay with my boyfriend and I? And there's lots of money here. The money was unheard of in terms of teaching English in Taiwan. So I remember taking my tax return, buying a ticket, going to Taiwan. I didn't even know where it was on the map. And you know, had a job. It was so much pressure because she said, you know, your first day here, we're going to get you a job today. There's no job. There's no guarantees for me, right? So I went and just knocked out that interview.
- It's really biased towards Canadian accents. There's definitely trepidation when they see my skin colour, but they want our accents over there. So I was able to get a teaching job instantly, and I was making tons of money. But it was all illegal. And so all the schools, the entire industry at that time was Black market in Taiwan, Black market English teachers. It was really weird. But at the same time, tons of Canadians, most of the school headmasters or principals or teachers, tons of Canadians because they really – they’re really in demand our accent, seriously. And so after three or four months and my visa was up just as a visitor. And I had had some run-ins, too, because I had to do -- You have to do these things called visa runs. Every month, your visa expired technically. So as long as you leave the country for a day and come back, you get another month. So I would just go to Hong Kong once a month.
- And then I think it was my third month I went there. But the timing was such with my ticket that on my exit of Taiwan, they said, "Oh, you've overstayed your visa by 12 hours. You cannot come back." [stamp sound] I was like, oh, shit. And then Hong Kong didn't want to let me. And they're like, well, why are you coming here? Where are you going -- are you living here? You can't return. And so they're like, we'll give you a couple of days to figure this out but you can't stay in Hong Kong either. And I had to -- I spent two days in the Hong Kong Airport, sleeping there. And it was really a pivotal point in my life. But I was able to get back into Taiwan by making a bunch of promises and showing that I wasn't a vagabond, essentially, getting letters from home showing I had an electricity bill and stuff like that. And long story short, when I came back to Canada, I was all just like, well, you know, that was the greatest thing ever, I need to get back to Asia, but on proper terms, on the level.
- So I went back, and I immediately tried to get into Waterloo to finish my undergrad degree. And Waterloo said no. You have two courses you failed in your first year. You haven't been a student for years. But Waterloo -- the saving grace was that Waterloo said, well, try the University of Guelph because they have open courses. And if you succeed in those courses, then that might let you into a program. So I came back, and I was working in construction. And I was doing these courses at the University of Guelph. They're open, like second- and third-year courses that really resonated with me. And eventually, they let me into the program and I essentially minored in Chinese studies, Chinese history, languages. And I was able to -- at that point, I was so obsessed with being successful academically and getting back to China, because I hadn't seen what was -- everything that’s taking place now, I had seen it coming.
- So this is like 2008, 9, where I was just obsessed with being the most knowledgeable person on China. And it really paid off because then the Canadian government gave me a scholarship to go back to China. And I was able to study at a university there and take intensive language courses and sociology courses and all and really establish bonds that still -- that maintain to this day. And I've been back a few more times. But it was the being kicked out of Taiwan initially that really made me want to go back on the level. You know, I really, really was looking forward to returning. Let me just plug in my computer, if you don't mind.
- AnneNo problem.
- AaronThanks.
- AnneSo I know you'd said this really changed your life, going to Taiwan. Do you know what it was? Or as you said, getting kind of kicked out of the country and then this kind of close call and wanting to go back, live more legitimately. But what was it about the culture? Could you put a finger on it or not really?
- AaronOh, it was so many things. The fact that it was a world onto itself, being there, I realized nothing we do here kind of will affect their trajectory, that Asia's ascent is inevitable. Everyone there was learning English. Everyone. And they were doing after school programs. And there was just such a huge emphasis on academic excellence there that I was like, wow. And I knew that in Canada -- I knew that nobody knew anything about Taiwan, you know, in the mid-2000s, let alone China. So it just -- it was really everything about the culture. First of all, Taiwan is paradise, literally, and really embraced me. I think going to Taiwan before going to mainland China was the best thing because there were some synergies with Western culture.
- And also just having friends there. The amount of Canadians I ran into. I truly realized that travel is the best education. And, you know, then in retrospect, I was like, oh, yeah, you know. That was part of why I love Canada so much because as a young boy born in Jamaica, so much about Jamaica is incredible, but so much is, like, oh, you know, I miss Canada. Jeez. But it just educated you on what you have and also what's out there. But yeah, going to Taiwan felt like going to another planet. And, you know, I wanted to continue that education. So it really -- my exposure to Chinese culture was the turning point.
- AnneWow. That's amazing. So you're back at Waterloo. How did you feel being a student at Waterloo initially?
- AaronWell, after Guelph -- so it took me 14 years technically or something to get my undergrad. And then at that point, I was a mature student. And, you know, I had worked trades, so I knew what was out there. So I was like, well, let me try to do this. And so I was really obsessed with being a good student. And it paid off. So my experiences at Waterloo were really -- so at Waterloo, as a master's student, there weren't -- there wasn't any social aspect to it. It was just school. And then I'd also be working. There was even, like, weird times where I would go to do half day in construction and then change in my car and then go to class. And so I wasn't really socializing. So that -- the experience was -- I was just really like, I want to keep going for my PhD.
- I want to -- I just want to do more, do better. Boom, boom, boom. So it kind of went by in a blip. And then I was supposed to keep going for my PhD, but then I got a job opportunity at UW. And so that, you know, delayed my trajectory, but also set me on a different path for probably five years. I was just working fulltime.
- AnneI was going to say, you worked for Waterloo for about five years. Yes. Sorry?
- AaronNo. What were you going to say? Sorry.
- AnneI just was -- did you have any mentors during your masters or your undergrad? Any professors kind of take an interest in you and help?
- AaronOh, yeah. Yeah. Undergrad is the best. Undergrad is, I think, the toughest part of -- my PhD has been a bit of a doozy these last few months. But my masters, it was disappointing in terms of the challenge. But my undergrad was a huge challenge. Norman Smith, who's a scholar of Chinese studies there and a historian and just a really great individual, he led the -- what do you call it? When we did the exchange, he led the scholarly exchange. So it was myself and about ten other students that went to China. He led that program. So Norman Smith, definitely someone that mentored me, really pushed me when I took his fourth-year Chinese history course. He had us reading a book a week, heavy duty books. And I didn’t think that it was possible, you know, that you could -- but it's almost unfair when I do historical stuff because I just see it in my mind like a movie. So it was -- I was so excited.
- And I was really happy about those courses. So Dr. Norman Smith, Dr. Adam Sneed, he's a political economist there. And I didn't even know what political economy was. And I -- he was a bit younger and, you know, crazy intelligent. So I think initially, I confused that for arrogance. But he ended up being my thesis supervisor because he was the only one that -- I always saw -- I saw failings in terms of how political science proper analysed things. And, you know, the principal referent in political science is the state, that sort of thing. But political economy started looking at the money behind the politics. And Adam Sneed was big on that. Oh, and Ian Taylor. Is it Dr. Taylor? Yeah, he's another one. But that whole department, the University of Guelph is just awesome.
- Awesome, awesome place. Got nothing but good things to say about the University of Guelph.
- AnneOh, wow. So then Waterloo comparatively -- was it Guelph that you said kind of fostered that academic, I guess, interest? Or was it more at Waterloo? How did that compare?
- AaronYeah, Waterloo is -- I guess I was --
- AnneYour head down.
- AaronThe campus is very staid to begin with. And so you're just -- and there isn't the same camaraderie. And maybe that's to be expected for graduate students. And also, I was a mature student. But I wasn't initially happy with it there. I think maybe, you know, deep down, because I knew I had the grades and the experience that I could have gone somewhere that one might say is more prestigious for political science. But I couldn't afford to do that because I have my -- I have responsibilities. And so I think I went there -- They gave me what they called a full ride. But that stuff doesn't really work out. And I just -- I found it was challenging that you could tell that the University of Waterloo was, at least at the time, was prioritizing technical and hard sciences.
- Yeah. So yeah, I remember getting -- so U of W has some good things going for it and there was a professor here named Hongying Wang. And she is my supervisor currently. And she is a Chinese scholar and a political economist and a brilliant individual. And so I was really grateful to take her courses. And the Balsillie School is a great place. And so I was technically a member of the Waterloo arts faculty. But I could take courses at the Balsillie School, so that was really great. I didn't take the global governance MA. I took the political science MA. And yeah, it's a cool program. It's decent. But yeah, Waterloo is a work in progress, you know. Like I said, I've always wanted to go here, and I've watched it grow. And if not for the Balsillie School, I don't know what I'd doing on this campus.
- AnneYes. What made you decide to go back to your PhD? You said you thought you'd go right through, but then you had this job opportunity.
- AaronWhy did I go back? I think because I kind of knew that it was always -- I think it was destined in a sense. I remember reading a newspaper report when Jim Balsillie put up the money for the Balsillie School. And this is around the time when I was trying to get into Waterloo for my undergrad. I remember just reading, oh, the old Bauer loft site is going to be turned into. And I remember because at that point, I was like, oh, you know, I want to be a scholar on international relations focussed on China, trying to get into my undergrad, having come back from Taiwan. And even though I applied to Waterloo, there was just -- they didn't have, in my opinion, the emphasis. They didn't have the pedagogical expertise when it came to China. And so the Balsillie School, I think, really helped create critical mass for political science and international relations at UW.
- And they've done a great job with that. And I would just comment that even at the University of Guelph, I took so many courses on Chinese history and so many language courses, but there was no option to get that recognized on my transcript as a distinction, as a diploma or anything like that. But, you know, you could take six French credits and get a French diploma, you know. Or you can minor in German Studies or just about anything. But you couldn't minor in Chinese studies. And that was super frustrating for me because it just reflected the institutional commitment to learning about China. There was always an intellectual deficit on China. And it was super frustrating. And I kind of felt that Waterloo was no different. But thankfully, I have my supervisor.
- AnneYes, so then in a sense, you've got this frustration that you don't have anyone to help guide, but you're also seeing a hole. So you're seeing a place that you can go and really maybe distinguish yourself as a unique scholar. But how do you learn the things you need to learn to be able to?
- AaronYeah. It took a while for me to really find my -- I've been trying to coalesce my various interests. And I've been able to centre on looking at China in the Caribbean. And that brings a certain satisfaction to me and just in my soul. And it still demands rigour. But because of late, I've really become a student of Caribbean culture.
- AnneWhich is interesting because that mixes with your artistic background as well.
- AaronYes, exactly. Yeah. So it wasn't by design. It's just -- well, maybe subconsciously, it was. But I'm grateful that, you know, I could visit the West Indies under the auspices of my doctoral research. But there's certainly some added benefits to it in terms of my own artistic research.
- AnneThat's amazing. So you do a lot. You wear a lot of different hats. So I was fascinated by all the work you're doing. And it was like, how do I ask you questions about every single thing? It's not quite possible. But I'm wondering, do you feel overwhelmed by all of the -- your different interests or all your passions? How do you organize your time?
- AaronYeah, it does get overwhelming from time to time. And I think I find myself taking time -- I take time to myself. I really like being alone. So that helps me recharge and rethink. I listen to really loud music sometimes, and it helps me concentrate. I probably should take walks or something, but I don't do that. Yeah, I will -- my techniques, I mean, I'm very meticulous in that I write down everything that I want to do. So even, like -- I have these weird charts that I found recently. I'm like, oh, what if I did my PhD here? What if I did my master's here? And then I plotted out Sthe next five years. And I did that for a while. And I like this certain deliberateness in writing stuff down.
- And everything I even did musically at all, I wrote more down first and was able to play it out. So I think just thinking about -- spending time with myself. I'm not also like -- not afraid to party. So I kind of recharge myself that way, I find. I love camping. And I like making music. I think music is probably my best therapy. I haven't made music publicly in a long time. But I have, you know, creative circles that I run in. And it's not unheard of where we would get together and, you know, freestyle rap for four hours straight.
- AnneHow do you balance that with the PhD? Do you find the PhD program demanding? Or do you find it allows time for you to do your -- to pursue your other interests?
- AaronIt's been up and down. I thought the coursework was pretty straightforward and demanding only because it was during COVID and it was through Zoom. And I found that sort of draining. I think it would have been -- I think I probably would have hopped and skipped if I was on campus, and I got to go to my courses. Literally, you know, it's a lot of fun. But then you're just in these -- you know, you don’t get to really meet your cohort. And I remember one of my colleagues -- one of my student colleagues, they created a WhatsApp group for us to talk and stuff. And that's just not me. And so there was a sort of emotional demand. And then the comps -- I went to my comps. It was probably God's grace. I didn't take them as seriously as maybe I should have, but I did just fine. I know they gave us a lot of time to study for them. And I didn't take advantage of that full time.
- But then that was fine. But then when it came to the dissertation proposal, I feel like -- I feel like I could have, because my -- it took mine a month longer than the official deadline to get approved, just because my supervisor, thankfully, is a taskmaster. And, you know, pleasing -- I think I misunderstood or perhaps mis-underestimated what it meant to please a committee of individuals and what that meant and their different perspectives where I'd have, you know, three people saying, oh, this is good. And then this person. I literally remember, like, okay, this is it, it's done. And I'm getting it in. And then Dr. Andrew Cooper, who's on my committee and who's an academic darling, he was just like, yeah, you're missing this concept. Go read this book. And then see you in two weeks. And it's like, holy smokes, I'm already two weeks behind, you know. But those things make me better, you know. And so I think people that get to this -- get access to these opportunities are already sort of driven.
- And they put the pressure on themselves. So whether or not the pressure is external, I don't know. But definitely, I put it on myself. And I'm looking forward to making my mark academically.
- AnneSo is that the goal? Is the goal still to become an academic?
- AaronI think absolutely. And I don't think I've -- maybe I misunderstand the definition of the term. But I don't think I need to necessarily be in an institution to be an academic. And so I see that as sort of -- being an academic as an inevitable outcome. Being a scholar --
- AnneOf the program and of the vigour of the work you're doing.
- AaronYep. Yep. And just the nature of who I am. But yeah, I would love to teach. I know I have a lot to offer. And I know that students relate to me. Black students don't get to see enough Black profs. So I know that my success is a victory in and of itself or my forthcoming successes. And so I'd love to be able to teach. I would very much love to be able to teach. So yeah, I'd love to be a prof. I do a lot of consulting for different institutions and that sort of thing. So I don't want to let go of that. I don't want to stop, you know, hanging out with rappers. So I get to do all these things.
- AnneSo that kind of brings me a little bit to your involvement in the arts community -- in the local arts community. Can you talk a little bit about that?
- AaronYeah, sure. Back in the day when I was – I started a record label, we were sort of pioneering hip hop artists in this town. And we did a lot of great things. And that sort of created a network for me, because we played every venue, Kitchener, Waterloo, Guelph, London, and a bunch in Quebec, and had some very legendary moments. And then so stemming from that -- Because there was just a certain attitude and energy that the people behind the scenes utilize. And that was very natural to me. So I maintain relationships with all the people in the service industry. And I will say that people in the service industry too, they reminded me of people in the construction industry because you can't just -- you can't let your team down. So it's a really -- they work hard. And so I maintain those relationships.
- I was managing a couple of other local artists that are super geniuses on their own right. And then eventually, when I decided to focus on school, I stopped doing that. And there was a period where I wasn't doing anything artistically. And then my youngest brother out of nowhere comes out with a mixtape. He goes by the name Ramsay Almighty. And I remember my brother, my little brother, Asheville and I listening to tape and just being, oh, wow, this is so good. We got to work with our brother. You know, it's amazing that he just -- not that he was -- he definitely learnt from watching, but he had created his own artistic practice, you know, absent our input directly. So it was so impressive. Then we started working together again. And I've always sort of mentored my brothers, of course. I've always just been a big brother. And they're so talented. So I'm always driven by the talent of others, inspired by it. You know, I’m truly surrounded by genius. And so when my brother Adam started taking photography super seriously, I was quote, unquote, "managing" him, helping set up gigs and helping with editorial aspects and just doing the same with my other brother, musically.
- And just about anyone who needed my help. And then I started DJing with my brother. And so this is like -- at this point, I haven't wrapped publicly since 04/20/2007. But DJing became a performative outlet for me. And I hadn't done that before. To that extent -- and I got these huge opportunities that I thought -- I never even imagined. But I did it with my youngest brother. And we had a great interplay because he's 10 years younger than me. And so the music that he focussed on is slightly different than mine. But we were able to find great balance. And so I'm not sure if you're from Waterloo region, but we had a residency at the Jane Bond. And that was a really cool place to be at. And I think just one of the more welcoming venues. And so that, for a few years, was my artistic obsession.
- But all the time, I'm still writing and stuff like that. But I haven't -- I'm not recording. So anyhow -- yeah, it's like people in my family, they never really stopped making music. And so I went from being a performer to getting an opportunity to work with the multicultural theatre space as a board director. I got invited onto that board by someone named Christian Schneider. And he's an artist and a printmaker and so many other things. And Bardish Chagger was on that board. And I went to high school with Bardish. So it was really cool. And so I was exposed to arts administration, which I already had a diploma in that. But it was a lot different when you put it in this context of theatre. And so that board opportunity just led to further and further board opportunities. And so I was able to justify my presence in multiple ways, not just having an artistic background, but also having an arts administrative background.
- And I think really just being someone that's respectful and really leveraging all of the relationships that I've had in this town that I've been building for, you know, 30 plus decades or 30 plus years. And so -- while I haven't been performing outwardly, I've never really stopped having my finger on the pulse of arts and culture. And I think sort of the final administrative gig that I had was chair of the City of Kitchener Arts and Culture Advisory Committee. And that was really cool. And a lot of things that came out of that and prior efforts were 44 Gaukel which is an arts hub in downtown Kitchener. And there's associate programming with that. And the City of Kitchener's arts and creative industries department is really -- they're really focused, and they're really talented. And they've taken a lot of risks to try to put art front and centre, because it's Kitchener.
- City of Kitchener, they do not -- the powers that be recognize that industrial capacity isn't enough to build community. You know, there needs to be artistic capacity. And how do we make that even better and sustainable? So these are questions that have been -- people have been asking for really, like, 10 years. And I think the City of Kitchener has really taken a lot of steps to realize that, to fill those gaps. Even right now, if I wanted to go to the Kitchener public library and have access to an industry standard recording studio and equipment. And it's no charge, you know. All of Vintage Black Canada, well not all of. But the first year and a half of the photos that I was scanning I was going to the City of Kitchener’s or KPL's scanner. I used that. Yeah. So there are a number of ways that I stay connected to the arts community.
- AnneYou've talked a lot about Vintage Black Canada in a number of interviews. So I was not wanting to go over too much of what you've done. But I'd love to hear more about it, especially in the way it kind of creates to this or that it relates, rather, to this creation of kind of an oral history narrative, in a sense, because you're creating and documenting these lives. And I think it's so valuable what you're doing. Can you talk about that in that context, perhaps, of this -- of oral history and just history in general?
- AaronYeah, sure. I thought it was important to retell the stories because I realized I have forgotten myself, where I sort of derive, you know, my character from. And so I wanted to remind myself. And I also wanted to remind my immediate community. And also, I wanted to -- I was always finding it frustrating that people outside of Waterloo Region didn't realize that there was a Black community in Waterloo Region. And so it was really fun to begin connecting with people and showing them like, oh, you know, this is Kitchener in the '80s. And, you know, this is a Jamaican dancehall and, you know, getting the reactions of Black people from Hamilton or Toronto. Like, oh, wow, you know, really. I took immense pride in my community, and I never stopped taking pride. But I just had to -- it was great to get that jolt and reminder. Like I said, before, when my uncle was winning the Juno, Lennox Lewis was winning the gold medal for Canada.
- And Lennox Lewis went on to defeat Mike Tyson eventually. So I always had a lot of pride in the Jamaican community and the West Indies community here. Even to this day, Canada's highest paid athlete, Jamal Murray, he's from Kitchener, you know, and he's of Jamaican descent. And so it never really stopped. And Mystic & Miranda, they won Junos. They're from Kitchener. Messenjah, they won Junos. They're from Kitchener. And Master T, who revolutionized broadcasting under Moses Znaimer with Much Music, you know, he went to high school with my Uncle Earl. And so there was so many reasons to just love being Jamaican and from Kitchener. But you kind of lose sight of that, especially when you're travelling the world. You know, I haven't been to Jamaica in 20 years, you know. But I've been to 20 different countries since then. So getting that jolt and being reminded was a blessing. And I think it's important to even tell the subsequent generations because things aren't the same as they were.
- We had a central hub and a downtown – like a little Jamaica. And that doesn't really exist anymore. And, you know, erasure is a two-way street. And so it's - the very least we can do as members of a community is to make sure that those stories don't die and to tell them because no one else is really going to tell them for you.
- AnneWell, I thought it was interesting that you talked in another interview about gentrification and how it's impacted, these community centres in a sense or these community institutions in terms of restaurants or dance halls and things like that. So that's interesting that this fairly small community actually had huge presence in a sense at the time.
- AaronYeah, absolutely. And I often wonder about the causes of the community's demise. And I think there's a theory that one could suggest. I would suggest that partly, the community achieved a certain level of success, if that's the right word, wherein they just merged with the surroundings and moved on. I know so many Black folks -- I ran into a friend from -- that I knew in the '80s. And I hadn't seen her. Her name was Natasha Pickersgill. And she's from a Jamaican family, and I knew her. And I ran into her in Toronto. And I was like, "Oh, Natasha, it's been 25 years. How are you?" And she's like, "Oh, I'm an executive at Rogers. I left Kitchener as soon as I graduated high school." And so the community, it spread out. It was less concentrated.
- And I think also that there were lessons to be learnt about proper business management and land ownership. And I know that there's all kinds of evidence of the challenges that Black people face in property ownership in North America. So has that contributed to it? Perhaps. And I also know that there were deliberate attempts by law enforcement to suppress what they perceived as a Jamaican mafia threat, if you will. So all these things contributed to the dissipation of the community. But this is what I can relish in is the fact that, you know, when I was a kid in the '80s, we knew that, like, oh, it's great to be a Jamaican. And we're good with our culture. And then to slowly, you know, 30 years later, well, you know, I could go to London, England. And even the mayor uses a Jamaican accent in London, England now.
- You know, it's really weird to see how Jamaican Culture has spread the world over. And it was fun to relearn those lessons. There's a really strong argument that the Jamaicans invented hip hop and stuff like that. And even Pan-Africanism, individuals like Marcus Garvey. Long story short, wherever Jamaicans went, they did something remarkable in those communities. And Jamaica is the third largest English-speaking language -- English-speaking country in the Western Hemisphere. And so there was definitely a responsibility or onus on Jamaica to speak on behalf of Black people in a language that North American whites could understand. And so I think that definitely lent to Jamaica's influence. Jamaica makes more music per capita than any country in the world. And I read that in Harvard Business Review. And so despite what I might perceive or what evidence may show of the dissipation of the community here, it really has spread out.
- And I can take solace in that.
- AnneWell, that's interesting. It brings me a little bit back to Waterloo because people talk about the university having started as this very small, close-knit community. And now of course, it's this huge international institution. And so if you think of that as well in terms of other types of communities and how they can go from maybe smaller and more localized to being -- having members that are very influential on the international scene, that is a type of growth or a type of change that we see in other groups and communities as well.
- AaronYeah, absolutely. And so I can lament the loss of maybe a certain small town feel. But at the same time, I think we can, you know, celebrate what Jamaican culture has become and continues to be. And just -- and sort of the new iterations of culture because culture does keep, especially if it's music culture, if you will. It does grow, and it does shift and change. And it's okay to not exactly like what it was sounding like or what have you, you know. I appreciate artistic growth, and I don't like stagnancy in in art. So --
- AnneI like that point. I like that point with the growth. I'd love to talk more, if you wouldn't mind, for the next little bit about Waterloo specifically and just the university and your time working there, I suppose, and your thoughts on the institution, as a community and how it's changed since you've been in Waterloo, what you've witnessed. So I guess to start -- so a lot of people who've gone to Waterloo, they grew up in Waterloo. They went to the University of Waterloo. They might work at Waterloo. It seems to retain people really well, this institution. Do you have any thoughts on that, why it keeps people there?
- AaronWell, I mean, I think there's a lot of positive reasons for people to want to stick around Waterloo. It does -- it's a, you know, world class institution, but with this small town feel. But I think the nature of university systems -- I assume. I've only worked for the one university, University of Waterloo. But from what I've observed, you kind of get a job there. And then it's impossible to get fired. So these people stick around. Maybe they should be moving on. And I know that I've reported to a department head that was literally 20 years into their position. And I felt like this individual is disconnected and in effect excused everything because the bargaining system in UW when it comes to fulltime staff -- I'll just speak from a fulltime staff's perspective -- you're getting raises every year. And so you have someone that's been there for 20 years, you know what kind of money they're making?
- And all this lends to why university is often unaffordable for many people. And I think that -- so again, that stymies ideas, stymies innovation. But it's not good for budgeting. And so -- I mean, that's not the most positive thing to say. But I think really, we can't rule out that people stick around Waterloo because it's easy to. And don't get me wrong, it's very tough to get into Waterloo, as a student and as a staff member. Not to say that the rigour isn't there. Not to suggest that whatsoever. But I think that there's a lot of incentive to stick around outside of positive ones. But to speak to the positives, I would say right now, I'm really happy about what Waterloo is doing in terms of the Black Faculty Collective and the forthcoming Black Studies diploma and the Black professor hiring cohort that they're announcing, I think, next Friday.
- And I'll be giving remarks at that. I think these things really excite me potentially about Waterloo. But I would -- like I said, as a master's students, you know, save for one or two professors, I wasn't happy. And, you know, as a grad student, the experience is marred partly because of COVID. I would have -- you know, I would have gone elsewhere. I love Kitchener-Waterloo. I love this community. I think that Waterloo, the makeup of the University of Waterloo really -- when we're talking about the makeup of the source countries, I think that that lends to a sort of certain energy at UW. So I appreciate that, the internationalized aspects of U Waterloo.
- You know, frankly, you didn't see something like that at Guelph. But at the same time, maybe I'm just a fan of smaller schools. Don't get me wrong. I don't know who's going to get to see this. But I'd love to be a professor at the University of Waterloo. But because I think -- but more because -- less because, oh, this is the most welcoming place for me and what I want to do but because, oh, the people that go here deserve better.
- AnneOkay. I love this because a lot of the interviews I've done have been in engineering. And so to hear a perspective on another kind of faculty or just another perspective on the university is amazing. So you kind of touched on diversity there. Have you seen diversity change at the university since coming? Was it more international students or what have you seen evolve?
- AaronWell, you know, I always keep my eye open for -- I always keep my ears open for Mandarin. I hear a lot of Mandarin on campus, there’s a lot of Chinese students on campus. And I think that that can only be good for U Waterloo. But just when I was working there, and I had to have an understanding of who their students were, I always found it fascinating that after China and India, that Nigeria was the third biggest source country. And that really fascinated me, impressed me, made me happy. But Waterloo has had some struggles when it comes to diversity. And so when I was working there, I was working to try to address the concerns of Indigenous students. And so since then, there has been a number of shifts. But during the time that I was working there, and I initiated this report called Indigenization at U Waterloo, making a number of recommendations, including diploma courses, land acknowledgments and just additional funding for, at the time, it was called the Aboriginal Student Centre.
- And now it's called WISC, I think. But just giving more voice and more attention, and essentially, following up on the Truth and Reconciliation recommendations. Our university was just not doing that. And I would say that there was very little pushback from us to -- from my team that initiated some of these things. And there was other pockets of staff that were working on it. Like at St. Paul's, they had already done a bunch on research on what UW needs to be a better institute. And so there's very little pushback, but I don't think -- I feel like our initiative was embraced. We got a permanent land acknowledgement plaque at the Student Life Centre. And that was attended by our members of parliament and the President. But, you know, I can remember having a conversation with someone about the Haldimand Tract and this person disputing whether or not -- sort of disputing the veracity that the Haldimand Tract claim, so to speak, and whether or not Waterloo is on it.
- And I remember, you know, having these little conversations And it was -- ultimately, it was a learning experience. And I think that these growing pains will have made the institute better. And then of course, there was the issue with Black students wanting data on basically how many Black students are at UW and just wanting data on Black students and the response that they got from -- I'm not sure which office it was. But that made headlines. It was in the VICE News and The Record. And U Waterloo tells Black students do the work yourself or something that. And, of course -- so these incidents is, again, the growing pains. So there -- but they have led -- I think they have led into the present moment to genuine to genuine changes. The hiring of a Black counsellor at UW was -- a counsellor specialization to just Black students.
- The hiring of that counsellor was -- it was a student's idea. And just some of the indigenization initiatives came from students. And then the time the students union and even the Graduate Students Union to this day, it was doing a lot of work in terms of just healthy approaches to sex and LGBTQ dialogues. And these sort of things, they're often student driven. But you know, and so as an institution, it is difficult to pivot. But here we are. And I would say that -- like I said, right now with the diploma program, some of the initiatives that are taking place through the equity office that I'm excited about the future of Waterloo. But yeah.
- AnneIt's interesting you talk about these EDI initiatives being student driven because it's true. If you look at Waterloo, the efforts of students to really change the university and improve it have been paramount.
- AaronYeah. And I think, you know, that's -- historically, they always say that students are those that are, you know, driving for progress, if you will, social progress. I remember some of the battles we fought were for changes to the Fair Housing Plan, where they call it the Ontario -- whatever code was governing rental properties in Ontario, it was really skewed towards landlords and against students, which one could say were vulnerable segments of society, especially foreign students. We were hearing the craziest things. You know, they'd have to pay a year in advance and all these ancillary fees that were technically illegal. And a big part of my time spent at UW was trying to get to the Minister of Housing and to get that person at the time to make changes. And they actually listened to us.
- We had to berate them. I remember I sent the Minister of Housing a document. And it was a letter from the mayor of Kitchener, the mayor of Waterloo, President of UW and MPP, Catherine Fife and someone else fancy. And they were all supporting us. And they're, like -- it was like, Minister Ballard, listen to these students. They have some stuff to say because he wasn't -- they weren't acknowledging us up until that point. And I remember sending that nicely packaged document saying, we're essentially hinting that this is going to become a public document soon. And yet, these are essentially student driven initiatives. And so yeah, I did have an opportunity to fight some battles I'm proud of at UW.
- AnneCan you talk a little bit about your -- about the President's Antiracism Task Force? Because I'm curious about your thoughts on that and the initiatives through that.
- AaronYeah, I think that was a brilliant initiative. I had to -- once my comps came along, I had to bow out. So maybe I was there for 10 months or something like that. I liked how -- so right now, there's a report that's been released stemming from that task force. And I think that the policy changes and the recommendations are truly going to benefit the campus. And so this is, again, to me an example where UW is really taking this stuff seriously. They had -- they have to. They had to. And I'm grateful that they were. Maybe, you know -- I don't want to speculate, but maybe, in fact, that Feridun was -- the former president of UW was on his way out, that he was more inclined to, you know, leave a lasting legacy. So funding that initiative and putting, you know, the right people in charge.
- And I think, you know, sadly, a lot of it stemmed from the George Floyd murder. And there was just a groundswell of a response. The Black Faculty Collective essentially came together after that. And they were making a number of demands. A lot of the changes that we're seeing on campus -- or sorry -- a lot of the changes that we're seeing in regards to antiblack racism were the issues raised by the Black Faculty Collective, which was essentially all the -- a good number of Black professors at the University of Waterloo. So the Antiracism Task Force was great. It was fun to be a part of it. It was a good mix of myself being a graduate student, there were members of undergrad students on the committee. You know, a couple of deans and profs. And so a good mix of folks. And I think that's been worked out well. No complaints.
- AnneYou've talked about kind of how change -- like, creating this institutional change is hard. And so you would probably agree with the statement that universities are slow to change and kind of hard to move forward. What would your advice be, I guess, for the next generation of students or the next generation of administrators? How can they keep this work going?
- AaronWell, one of the things I loved about the Graduate Student Association working with them as equity coordinator, after we did some research -- the point of the research was to codify the roles and to codify some of the goals, excuse me, concerning EDIR. So once you can codify them and they could stay in place -- and UW admin has their policy book. And I think those policies were reviewed every five years. And that's sort of the code. But just making sure that these aren't the messages. Just don't make sure that these issues are passing or on a whim, but that they're embedded within the governance structure so that we're constantly being forced to look at ourselves and to review ourselves and to review our community.
- That's it. And sometimes, it's so easy to sort of make things disappear. There’s policies that expire, that sort of thing. And so it will remain to be seen. Right now there's so much going on, blah, blah, blah. You know, let's see three years from now and people forget who George Floyd was.
- AnneYes. We need to keep that memory alive. Certainly. Yes. When you're doing this type of work, is there a level of frustration that comes with it in terms of I guess the slowness to change or feeling -- or did it feel at Waterloo, everyone was really working together?
- AaronI remember -- so I led -- I initiated the George Floyd solidarity marches. It took place in Kitchener; 25,000 people, that sort of thing. And I initiated it, but it became a group effort. And sort of a planning committee that we had was adamant that if you want to be in solidarity with Black Lives Matter, well, then you need to -- you need to heed one of their calls, which is defund the police. And that was -- there was a lot of pushback from myself on that and from others initially. And in part, I think it's from sort of a self-censorship and internal brainwashing that was taking place in my mind, but also the way that they were communicating it. And when I think others began scrutinizing what they were saying, it's like, well, reallocate this budget money to more wholistic community practices.
- That made complete sense to me. It didn't make sense that half their budget goes to the police. So that was sort of an initial push back. Surmounting that, how I’m on PART. I remember -- I just remember saying -- so I'm not the one that's out there shouting, "Defund the police." But I'm definitely the one that's saying, like, "let's examine these budgets, and let's do wholistic practices." But I just remember the person that was chairing committee, I remember however I worded it, flew in diplomatically. But the individual was saying that, well, my father is police officer, and his father before him was a police officer. Police officers are good people, so we're not going to be having that conversation here. And so it was very much shut down right away. But it was shut down sort of like in that moment. But I was able to revisit it just through diplomacy to visit it. And I have a great working relationship with the UW campus police because of my previous role.
- And so I just messaged Alan Binns with the permission of the committee, and to help -- to get them to explain what their budget went to. Because as a community, we weren't looking at the community budgets or the regional budgets. We're looking at the campus budgets. And we had to -- the reason I brought it up is well, we have to address what the students are saying. Now they're saying defund the campus police. And so you're taking -- this is an argument that doesn't necessarily apply in the campus context. And so what we were able to do during my time in part was to have that conversation with them, and where they were breaking down what the money was spent on and the training they had. And I think that there were answers that would satisfy those in the community that were saying, you know, abolish campus police. So you know, I think, all in all, it was very professional.
- And it was a really well done part. And yeah.
- AnneAnd really, what you're talking about there is a transparency. Right? And a communication that then helps people understand.
- AaronI have really high hopes for UW I think it’s only like 65 years old. And I think they've done so much. And I look at things the Perimeter Institute and, again, the Balsillie School. These things really, they really impress me. And there's a lot of good profs here. Dr. John Ravenhill, who's the head of the political science department right now currently. Like, as an undergrad at U Guelph, I had to read his textbook. And he was in Australian National University. He's like a giant from Australia. And I just remember, like, oh, he's coming to Waterloo. And so I think, in time, Waterloo will only continue to punch above its weight. University of Waterloo.
- AnneI love that, the punch about its weight. It does seem to attract people from all over the world, which is amazing.
- AaronYeah, absolutely.
- AnneYou just -- you kind of touched on this, but one of our big questions or one of the themes of the interviews we'd like to explore is where university -- the University of Waterloo will be, you know, at its birthday, at 100-years -- at its centennial. So I'm curious what kind of -- if you were to cast your thoughts forward to that 100 years, what would you like to see for the university?
- AaronI want to see -- there's a program here called Knowledge Integration. And it's such a fascinating program because to me, it brought in, like, English literature and rhetoric, but also like design and also technology. I think when U Waterloo is able to merge their prowess in engineering but their latent issue -- forgive me for saying sort of latent abilities in the social sciences. And I don't say that disparagingly because there's so many amazing scholars at UW. But I just don't think that enough people are aware of them. And so the light is always shone on engineering, in my opinion. And so when they create programs that I think can merge these strengths, I think that will -- I think that is what I want to see.
- I'd love to see also UW doing programs that no one else is doing. I remember, for example, Chinese studies. You know, there are so few schools that one could go to for Chinese studies, at least when I was looking 10 years ago. But I'll give you another example. There was a period of my life where I thought, oh, space policy. And I thought, well, shucks. Even the astronaut that plays a guitar in space, he was teaching here. And then you have these political science scholars. You have these, you know, hard science professors. You had the capabilities to develop a space policy program. And even to this day. And that was 10 years ago. And I was like, man, why doesn't UW do a space policy program? Because to do space policy, you’ve essentially got to go to McGill. And it's offered through the LLM. Or just, like, school in Switzerland.
- But of course, in the States, you know, George Washington University has one, and MIT has one. I want UW to be more aggressive in terms of, you know, how they approach future programs.
- AnneAnd so the introduction of new programs, really. Would you say that's something that they're slow to do? Like, it takes a lot of support for new programs at the university?
- AaronWell, I know that the mechanics behind it are tough because they’ve got to justify with the ministry and they’ve got to justify budgetarily. Yeah, I don't know if they’re any slower -- I beg your pardon?
- AnneSorry. They need the student interest.
- AaronYeah. They need student interest. But I think -- shucks, I think students are just interested. I think they need to -- there's so many ways that they have to justify it. But especially when the Ford government came in, UW had no choice but to emphasize the engineering programs because the government was looking around. And they wanted to know, this person is a student and how much money are they contributing to the Canadian economy when they graduate. And UW is able to illustrate that, especially through the co-op program. So it was very savvy of UW. Back when I worked in stakeholder relations, Doug Ford visited twice, and at the time, Premier Kathleen Wynne. Every member of parliament, or sorry, every sort of leadership hopeful was coming to UW. And they were getting tours of the engineering facilities. But yeah, if I could speak briefly on co-op, that, to me, was an example, too, just as an undergrad -- sorry -- as a master's student, I had the option for co-op.
- And I felt like it was hard to find a program that I thought would -- sorry -- a working opportunity that I thought would lend to my academic development in my field. Do you know what I mean? Whereas I think it's much easier for someone coming from an engineering background at UW to take advantage of the co-op program.
- AnneMaybe more support for the engineering co-op program or more -- it sounds like from the interviews I've done in engineering that the program seems to reinforce the ties with industry, which leads to more opportunities for co-op for students. And maybe it's not quite the same relationship in other faculties.
- AaronYeah, it isn't. And I don't think -- I think fine, if you want to do that. But I just know in my heart of hearts that we need the arts. And so many of the jobs in KW are tech focussed and only tech focussed. And I'd just love to see people being more than just -- you know, I have this saying that -- I think I made it up -- that people that go to Laurier become the bosses of people that go to UW. And because at Laurier, that there's a certain social ability that comes from not just being focussed on your computer. I wish I could explain it. And I can't justify the statement. But you walk around Waterloo, and there's so many folks with their heads down.
- And they don't know how to interact with other humans. And that's just not the case at Laurier. And I just --
- AnneI think what you're talking to is these soft skills. Like, they talk about soft skills all the time in engineering. And so if you have, you know, this amazing brain that can process and do these really cool creative things, but you're not able to communicate it, then how do we bridge that gap?
- AaronThat's what I'm saying. And then if you read -- I like reading reports from the World Economic Forum. They talk about jobs that automation will make irrelevant. And coding is one of them. Sadly, so is accounting. And these are things that UW is doubling down on hardcore. And then you look at jobs that computers won't be able to replace, and they require people skills. They require human management skills. And I don't think UW is heeding this warning as yet.
- AnneSo that will be another area then to focus on in terms of how the university can improve or where you would like to see it go.
- AaronYes.
- AnneYes. I'm in history, so you know I support all of those opinions.
- AaronI know.
- AaronI know.
- AaronWell, I stopped writing those plans after COVID. Or maybe slightly before COVID. Yeah, I believe forecast the future has gone out the window. So where do I see myself? I have two more years I have to -- I have funding guaranteed to finish my doctorate. And I really have my eyes set on doing some sort of scholarly exchange. I have my eyes set on this fellowship at Harvard and the W. E. B. Du Bois Centre, which is -- W. E. B. Du Bois was the first Black graduate from Harvard with a doctorate. And they created a centre there, I think they call it the Hutchinson Centre. And there's a number of fellowships that are open to individuals that -- individuals such as myself. And I probably, in another life, would have gone to an Ivy League school.
- But it's like it was just an impossibility for me. But now I've built up a war chest, an intellectual war chest and a CV that I think -- and more the point like I know what I want to do. And so I think that there's an opportunity for me to -- I want to expand my professional network with African American scholars. As much as I need to continue to do that here in Canada, I'm really looking forward to being an ambassador for my community in the United States. I do not want to live there, and I do not want to move there. But you know, to visit, for sure. I really wanted to go to Cornell. They have an Africana studies program. And I had plans to go there. But thank goodness I didn't because it was in COVID.
- But I think the next couple of years, I think I'm going to -- I've never put out a solo rap album. So I have to do that. I'm going to put out a photo book for Vintage Black Canada. I already had the offer from a publisher. And I’m producing this documentary for my uncle. And so it's 2022 now. Well, that won't come out for a year. And then, who knows, the festival circuit. I want to just keep pushing these projects but making them the best I possibly can. Oh, I need to publish. I haven't published in an academic peer-reviewed journal. And so that's -- this has become my -- you know, my professional goals. But I still have my artistic goals. And so Vintage Black Canada, I think, I could see myself -- if the book comes out the way I envision it, then I'll just really -- I'll probably be -- I'll just rest.
- I'll gracefully bow out of that project. You know, it's not something that I foresaw. I never thought it was going to get as big as it did. And we're looking kind of like almost the fourth-year anniversary when the book will come out. So, you know, I'd be happy to put a bow on that and then walk away. But I think one of the more important things I want to do is I really want to -- I want to put out a hip hop album that's infused with everything that I've learnt over the last 40 years and sort of shake the corridors of power through music.
- AnneWow. Wow. I love hearing about your goals. It's amazing. It sounds like -- when you were talking about having kind of this Black community and an academic Black community, that sounds a lot like what Kamala Harris has talked about in terms of going to, you know, a Black campus and being able to have fellow Black leaders. You've talked about the importance of kind of being a mentor or being very visible for students. But for yourself, what does that achieve, or what does that feel like? I guess I'm kind of asking you to speak to its importance is what I’m doing.
- AaronOh, yeah. It was my saving grace during my first two years in this doctoral program. It was the Black Faculty Collective with Dr. Christopher Taylor and Kathy Hogarth. And all of them, they welcomed me in sort of like a liaison for the GSA but as a potential faculty member one day or something. I don't know how I was able to get in there and get to these meetings when there was -- and sort of -- and play a part, however small, in advancing the goals of the Black Faculty Collective. Those -- we were meeting once a month. And they were just the most relaxed setting that I had, the most relaxed academic experience, sitting in those groups. And someone like Dr. Christopher Taylor, who was a published, you know, professor, but he looks to me like an average person.
- And I love that about him, and that he didn't -- we as Black people do things. Like, I would shave my hair really low or do things to fit in. And then Christopher Taylor showed me, well, you don't have to do that, you know. And so that was just, you know, it really lifted a weight off my shoulders. And I continue to look to him for advice and stuff. Published -- I'm helping him -- I'm editing one of his -- he started the journal called the Sankofa Journal. I'm editing it. And so right after we're done talking, I have to finish that because I'm kind of behind on that. So he always gives me opportunities to prove myself. And some of the others there, too. Dr. Naila Keleta-Mae is really just someone that they're unapologetically Black. And it was beyond my wildest dreams because as I say, myself, to come in contact with Black professors is few and far between, you know, coming up.
- And so when we had this concentration of them here at UW and making things happen, we weren't reviewing the goals of the Black Faculty Collective yet. We had sort of like one year later, and we're reviewing the goals. And it was like, there were some of the goals. Like, go get it. Establish a Black studies program. Check. You know, get a, you know, C-suite level position for a Black faculty member. Check. All these things that we were trying to do, we actually did. So it was just remarkable to be a part of and watch.
- AnneAnd a lot to be proud of. That's amazing. I guess -- I know we're winding up. But I'm wondering if you feel there's anyone at the university that you think we should interview. So this is the first stage of what's hopefully a larger project. I'm curious if there's anyone that stands out to you that you think their story really needs to be told and their voice needs to be heard.
- AaronSo do you mean students or staff?
- AnneReally, anybody. So right now the project is university wide. So we're interviewing staff, students, professors, people in administration. It's a big project.
- AaronWell, the person I reported to at the GSA, her name was Zabeen. And I know that Zabeen has been at UW for six years. She’s not from Waterloo Region. And she was the VP of Communications for the GSA for a couple of years and was really a driving force behind some of the GSA's transformations. And I think, you know, she’s someone she's really a champion of the grad house and stuff like that. You know, like, really, a UW student but not from here. So I think Zabeen would probably be a fascinating interview. Yeah. I'd have to email you her last name. I don't remember her last name.
- AnneOh, that's great. I'd love your thoughts on how important you believe these stories are as well. So this this type of work to capture the oral histories across the campus and in the Waterloo community.
- AaronI think it's so important. I was so happy that you're doing this and to be given the opportunity. With Vintage Black Canada, initially, I thought maybe I will start capturing oral stories and oral histories. It's just easier for me logistically to get, you know, little quotes and little sentences and just insert them in my -- it's just it would take a much larger dedication to capture the oral stories, oral histories. And so I think it's so key that what you're doing. UW has a ton of fascinating stories. And I had to celebrate -- I helped -- I had to do research for the -- it was the 50th anniversary of the Federation of Students and looking through all the old yearbooks and some of the folks, the stuff that's gone -- taken place on this campus and the people that have passed through here. It's wild. Like, a former Governor General and just some of the professors and thought leaders and even just radical thinkers.
- So I think it's really critical that you capture them from a more personal standpoint such as this because they -- you know, you're able to illustrate the subtlety and nuance in these narratives.
- AnneYes. I also love the nuances. And what do you hope, I guess, we could do with the oral histories? Because I'm always interested in -- I think you were talking about this as well, about combining different disciplines and really working outside of your field. And it's something I think historians and especially oral historians need to really work on. And I love what you've done with your project because it's so visible and in a way easily digestible, which is for people now -- important. People do -- they want to be able to understand something. And then I love how your project can get so much bigger. So you can, you know, take a piece, but then you can go and read more about things and learn more and expand it. It's really -- and what I experienced when I was viewing it was that it's this jumping board for so much more. And so with something like this and oral history, I sit down, I talk to you for two hours. That's a lot of material. And how you take that and use that to me is I think a challenge right now.
- AaronYeah. I don't envy you in that challenge. I often think of Marshall McLuhan and the medium is the message. You know, just forgive me for saying, but you might have to just condense all your work into some TikToks in order to get the visibility that it deserves.
- AnneYes. Yes. I love that. Thank you. Do you have anything else you'd like to share that we didn't touch on or any other final thoughts?
- AaronOne of my favourite photos my grandfather took was of my great grandfather, Raymond Ruddock. And he came here in the '60s, late '60s, but as an older man, borderline retired. And he was a groundskeeper at UW or janitor, if you will. And I didn't even know that. And I remember finding the photo. And I remember hearing -- I remember, you know, hearing, oh, you know, a lot of people have worked at UW over time from my family. But when I found this photo, it was black and white. My grandfather took it himself and developed it himself. And it's my great grandfather in his uniform and standing in front of what is known, I think, as Math 3. But you can only -- it's such a jarring image because now -- I wouldn't say it was a jarring image. It's an unfamiliar image because the buildings that we associate with campus aren't there yet. This is only a couple years after UW opened, maybe two years after.
- And I would picture myself if I get an office at UW that I would put that up in a frame in my office to remind myself how far my family has come.
- AnneI love that. Is that a photo that we could see or that could be eventually given to the archives? Because that's amazing.
- AaronYeah, for sure. Absolutely. I'll email it to you.
- AnneOkay. That's amazing. I know Nick is hoping to do kind of some promotional videos and to shorten some of the content. And it would be cool to flash to that, just even in your story, because I bet it's a powerful image.
- AaronYeah. Absolutely.
- AnneWell, thank you so much for speaking with me today. The next step is I'll send you the video, and you just have to approve it. I'll send you our release form, so it can be deposited at the archives. If there's any questions, anything you want changed or deleted or -- I think the content was pretty straight forward -- but you just let me know. And I can make anything work to make sure you're comfortable with the final product.
- AaronNo, no, I stand by my words. So if you send me the release form, that'd be fine. And you said that I'll get a TA rate. Would that be a UW deposit kind of thing?
- AnneYes. I think Nick was saying it's a $50 honorarium, and he's going to do it through Workday. Are you signed up for Workday?
- AaronI am.
- AaronI am.
- AaronWorkday. It's the worst.
- AnneIt seems like from my experience, if you have one Workday account, it's hard to have two Workday accounts. It's a little different.
- AaronYeah.
- AaronYeah.
- AaronWhat are my thoughts on Workday? Oh, man. Get rid of it. I think part of the reason I left UW, like I did get a job offer, but I was just like -- they were introducing Workday. And there was so much bullshit around that. And I was just like, I'm taking this job. I'm out of here. It was the worst.
- AnneOh, wow. So did you go right to your PhD from U Waterloo? Or did you do another job in between?
- AaronYeah, I did this job. I was working for MPP Laura Mae Lindo. No, no, sorry. I'm talking about -- no, I did a bunch of jobs before my PhD. But Laura Mae Linda was one of them. And then I went to -- then I was working at an art gallery in Toronto, a Black-owned art gallery. And Laura Mae Linda -- job with Laura Mae was -- it coincided with the ascent of Vintage Black Canada. And then I realized, like, I don't need to work with the policy circles right now. I need to understand gallery culture and what it means to be an archivist. And so it was like an opportunity. I was commuting to Toronto, working in this art gallery, being mentored by this person named Karen Carter, but being paid as a curator. And that led to my first exhibit. And my first exhibit. Yeah.
- AnneHow did you pick things as a curator? I'd love to know that. I know I'm still talking but --
- AaronYou know, the stuff, it'll speak to you. I think Karen was showing me, you know, like, oh, let's organize this around themes. That was -- when I did that show with Karen around the theme, certain themes outdoors or, you know, basements or whatever. And then -- but it was Vintage Black Canada proper, like, my page. Sometimes I only post when I feel good about it. And sometimes I agonize over it. But the photos will speak to you, and that's when you know.
- AnneThat's a beautiful thought to end on. Thank you so very much for speaking with me.
- AaronMy pleasure. And take care.
- AnneYou too.