Interview with Darrell Adams

It's June 8th, 2023. This is an interview with Darrell Adams for the Oral History Hub Project Phase 2. The interviewer is Jermal Jones. Welcome, and thanks for joining me here today, DA (Darrell Adams).

Thanks for having me. I'm really looking forward to this conversation.

Let's jump right in. Let's start by talking about your family and your childhood where you were born, where did your parents grow up? Where did you grow up? What were their professions?

Yes, my name is Darrell Adams. I go by DA, so when you listen to this in the future, you know who DA is. I'm originally from Long Island, New York, about an hour outside New York City. Single parent, only child, I didn't have any siblings. It was just me and my mom for the duration of my youth. Props to mom, she did a great job raising me by herself. It's very challenging to raise a man, let alone a Black man doing it by herself. My auntie was there, and my grandmother was in the picture. They helped kind of mould me, but I got to give her all the credit to her because she was the one that really kept me on the straight and narrow, kept me out of trouble, provided for me. She worked countless hours to make sure I never had a need for anything, food, clothing, and shelter. Being in the suburbs, not being in the in the inner city, I was shielded from some of the things that some of my peers and friends were exposed to. So, thankful for her for raising me and giving me every opportunity to be the best version of myself. Starting at a young age, she believed in me, she empowered me, she taught me to be independent and I just give her all the praise and love and everything I do is to make her proud.

After high school in Long Island, I was able to earn a scholarship to Villanova University outside of -- in Pennsylvania, outside of Philadelphia, where I played football, and I studied communications with a minor in marketing. I Graduated back in 2005. After graduation at university, I did a year and a half with the New York Jets on their practice roster opportunity to fulfil my dream. Coming up as a young kid, I fell in love with sports. It was a way for me to gain friends and find my own identity. It was really hard being an only child, not having anybody to talk to, anybody to play with, so I turned to sports to be able to develop socially. I met some great coaches along the way. Definitely, I want to give a shout out to my high school head coach, Joe Patrovich because without him I wouldn't have been discovered by Villanova. He did a great job of putting my tape out there, letting coaches know that I was a kid that had a lot of potential. Very raw from a talent standpoint, but I had the size, and I was coachable and I'm always attributing my success to my coaches because, not having a father figure at home, I leaned to them for what it was to be a man and how to conduct myself and how to handle business. So, thankful for Coach Patrovich, giving me opportunity, to Villanova and thankful to my coaches at Nova (Villanova) getting me to the next level.

After the New York Jets, I migrated to Canada. I came up here in 2007 and I've been here ever since. This is 16 years now in Canada. Where we are in Southern Ontario is a lot like home, a lot like Long Island. You get your four seasons, it's hot in the summer, it's cold in the winter, and I like change. It's English speaking, you have your big metropolis in Toronto, which is like a mini–New York City, very diverse, very vibrant. So, for me, leaving home wasn't that big of a deal because I had done it once when I left home for university and I did it again leaving to come to Canada. Again, I attribute that to my mom raising me to be open-minded and independent.

Coming here was just something I didn't plan on, but something I've really embraced, and met my wife. We've been married seven years now. I have two beautiful kids. My son will be 13 next month and my daughter will be six in a few weeks. So thankful for my family. It's a blessing, and I'm looking forward to continuing the life that I built here in Ontario.

Thanks for sharing that. Going back to your mom, what did she do? Do you mind sharing what she did for work?

(When) My mom started out; she was a home health attendant. She was kind of the level below the nurse practitioner. She was never able to go to school and get the proper certifications, but she was kind of in healthcare. She did that all throughout my youth and even through high school. It wasn't until I graduated high school where she changed jobs, and she now works for a school bus company. She is in the office now with -- and I'm proud of her because, she was old school, put your head down and work. Wasn't always into the technology and she didn't have a licence my whole high school career. Once I graduated, she kind of came out of her shell, was able to find her wings and fly. Now she is using computers, and she is doing things from a technological standpoint. She has got her license, she has got a car, she has been driving for the past, I don't know, 10 or 15 years. I'm definitely proud of her and everything that she did because she showed me what hard work and dedication looks like. I can't remember her missing a day or taking the day off because she was so committed to helping me and providing for me. That's where my work ethic comes from is her constant motivation and sacrifices that she made.

Thanks for sharing that. Going back to that work ethic and hard work, as a child, were there any specific subjects that you excelled in at school?

Yes. I was good at math. My mother always told me, as long as you can read, write, count, and spell, you'll be just fine. I always did well at the basic stuff, simple math, English; being well spoken with something that she always talked about. Don't be put into a box where people assume that you're ignorant or because you sound ignorant because you can't speak properly, or you can't spell or write properly. English and math were my top two subjects because I put so much focus and attention on it because those are transferrable skills, right? Everything else, I did well enough to pass and get the marks I needed to be eligible to play and never failed the class. English and math were the two that I really thrived in and that's something I really embark on my kids now because of all the broken English and the social media, kids are not using proper grammar and sentence structures and it's hard for them to hold conversations without having some sort of a device in front of them. That's why I try to embark on them. Hey, it's important to have a good vocabulary, to know different words and what they mean and how to use them properly and to be able to do simple math so people can't rip you off.

So that concept of mastering it so then you can -- when you do want to break it down or deconstruct it, you can --

Exactly.

-- and you flow back in between.

Exactly. As you know, we got to do a lot of code switching, you know what I mean? We got to be able to play the game and speak both languages and then be able to adapt to whatever environment that we're in. The bigger, the broader your vocabulary, the easier it is for you to do that.

Makes sense. As you grew up in Long Island, what was like going to school in Long Island? Was it very similar to here, as you would imagine Kitchener Waterloo area?

Well, I have this turning point in my life. From age zero to when I was 10 years old, I lived in a predominantly Black neighbourhood. You can call it the hood if you want to, but it was different in a sense of, that was my culture. I was ingrained in my culture, always around my people. Then we moved to the suburbs where I was basically -- spent my teenage years. It was a culture shock because right away you look around and you see, oh, there's not a lot of kids that look like me and I really started to understand what Blackness meant because it wasn't something that you discuss openly when you're in the hood. You're just living where you're living. It was one day where a kid, I'll never forget, came up. He was like, "Hey, you're a Black." I'm like, "What does that mean?" So, then I went home, had a conversation with my mom and she broke it down. Like, listen, yes, you're Black, you're beautiful, you're a king, you have a rich history, but there's some people in this world that are going to treat you differently because of the colour of your skin. That's where I was really subject to learning about racism and history and everything that's happening in the world.

Coming up in Long Island, it was very competitive. Everything was about establishing identity. It was about competition, winning at all costs, whether it be sports, fashion, girls, it was -- everything was -- it was New York City. You got to have that swag, you got to have that attitude, that bounce. Coming to Canada, it was a bit different in the sense of, it felt the same geographically because of the climate, because of the language but the culture was different. I say that because when you meet people in Canada, the first thing they ask you is, what's your background? They don't just assume. Whereas if you're back on Long Island, (the assumption is) okay, that guy is Italian, that guy is Jewish, that guy is Black. Whereas here it's what's your background? Then you dive really into what people's cultures, where they're from. I think they've (Canadians) really embraced, how everybody migrated from somewhere else. Unless you're a native or first nation, what they (how Canadians refer to Indigenous Peoples) say here now.

That standpoint, and then the racism is more covert here in Canada. Whereas like in New York and Long Island, you knew I'm going to stay away from that section, I'm going to avoid those people because everything was widespread and wide open. Whereas here it took a while to unpack, okay, yes, I'm a Black man in Canada, I should be (safe)-- initially it felt a little bit safer. It felt like, oh, I was always pointing the finger, oh, look what is happening in the US. Well, a lot of similar things are happening here in Canada. It didn't feel like a different country from that standpoint after a while.

The biggest things I miss now are just family back at home and the food. Obviously, having different delis and bodegas in New York and some of the culture things, but other than that, we're all people, we're all humans, and we got to look out for one another. I was able to connect and meet some really, really great people here. Still expanding my network as I speak and looking forward to getting to know you better, more personally, and continue to evolve as a person.

Thank you. So, in Long Island, you got to have a swagger, how did that translate to your career at Villanova?

It was interesting because that was the first time I had left home; first time I had a chance to interact with people from different parts of the country. I was able to become close friends with guys from Southern US, Georgia, guys from out West California. You get to see the different cultures and backgrounds of how people conduct themselves versus what you see on TV. You know what I mean? A lot of that stuff is watered down. A lot of that stuff is inauthentic. To be able to grow and learn, those really important years from 18 to 22, really embracing, this guy is from Florida; he has got a little bit of a different twang when he speak. Okay, this guy is from Arizona. He has got a little bit different way he walks and how they do things. That was important for me to say (acknowledge) yes, there are different types of Blackness, right? It isn't just one uniform way to identify as Black.

That was important for me because I left home for the first time, I'm comfortable in my own skin, but I'm also interested in learning more about other people from different backgrounds and different walks of life. This added more to the pie. I brought that New York swag attitude and that hustle mentality. It was good to see how other people lived their life and how they were raised and born. You share commonalities, some single parent households, some kids -- my teammates with no father figures, no siblings, or you had some that came from two parent households and lived in the suburbs. You can't assume that everybody is the same. It was nice to be able to connect on those levels and share and have like-minded people. Understand that university is just a stepping stone to get you to where you want to be in the future.

Yes, because Villanova, US colleges and universities are a little bit different than Canadian universities and colleges, can you kind of explain what the presence was like, what campus life was like?

Yes. For me, Villanova was a small Catholic private school in the suburbs of Philadelphia. It wasn't your traditional, D1 (Division 1) setup. You have some of these schools down south, the Stanford's, the Michigan's, the Florida States. Those are big and illustrious and immaculate whereas Villanova was nice and quiet. It was everything I needed it to be. I don't think I would've thrived had I went somewhere else, because I might've been overwhelmed. Again, I was a little bit young-minded coming out of high school. I wasn't as mature as some of my peers that were at school. Villanova was perfect because it was far enough away from home where I was like, I'm out of the reach of my friends, but I can get back within a two-to-three-hour drive or a bus ride. I didn't have to fly across the country. I had the city, the big City of Philadelphia, which is very historic. I can go downtown and learn about the history of that city and be able to go and experience other cultures because there's different universities within Philly. You have Temple University, St. Joe's, Drexel, La Salle. Having a chance to see what life is like at a different institution, all while still developing and growing at Villanova. It was nurturing for me because, again, it was a small campus, so the class sizes were small. I didn't have any of those huge first year courses where there's 200, 300 students and you don't know who your professor is. I was able to meet most of my profs throughout my entire career. Have a chance to get some one-on-one conversations and the help I needed. Being able to understand what it took to balance football, school, social life, making decisions on your own, managing your time, figuring out what you want to do with your future, it was very important for me to be there. It was a school that was predominantly people who identified as White. Being, one of the few people who identified as Black was a big deal as well. So, just taking everything, I had learned from high school, being in the suburbs going to high school that was predominantly White to a university that's predominantly White. Still, being able to connect with those who identify as Black, do some different things on campus, learn about my history and my culture was part of the growth.

Coach wise, were there any prominent coaches that stood out for you that went a bit over and beyond --

Yes, for sure.

-- to help you grow?

I mentioned my high school coach. He was the first one. Like I said, just putting my name out there and getting me opportunity to get recruited by Villanova. Then the two biggest ones were my defensive coordinator who was my -- who recruited me. He came to Long Island, watched me play basketball. He sat in my living room, talked to my mom and really sold the picture of Villanova and how they were going to support me. He held up his deal because he always told me, “you can be great if you put the work and I'm going to show you how to do it” and he did that. My position coach, his name was -- my D-coordinator's name was Joe Trainer. He was the first and then my position coach Clint Wiley, he really did a great job of taking me as a young, raw athlete and teaching me the techniques and the fundamentals of the game; how to prepare, how to play and all the things I needed to be successful for my position. Those two guys throughout my career were instrumental in getting me to the next level both as a player and as a man. 00:15:30.000 --> 00:15:35.000 Yes. We're going to come back to this conversation around “what be(ing) a man is as we move forward.

For sure.

Yes. So, now we're in 2007. You migrated to Canada. You played some time with the New York Jets and now you have your CFL career. Could you speak about what it was like to play in the CFL?

Well, yes. It was a dream come true because although I was with the New York Jets and the NFL, I didn't play any games. I was on the practice squad. You do everything leading up to the game, but not playing the game. I don't want to say it felt like a job because it was stumped. I'm doing what I love. I'm getting paid to do it, but you're not playing on game day. It was a level of humbleness to that whereas when I got to Canada, number one, I had no idea what I was getting myself into. I had a buddy of mine who I trained for the NFL combine with. He was playing here (the CFL), and he was telling me about the league and stuff, but you don't really know until you're in the fire. Coming up here blind, not knowing a lot about the game other than, Doug Flutie and a couple other players that played up here, Warren Moon, some of those guys that played. You learn about the game itself, how different it is from the NFL. You learn about the different cities in Canada. You realize -- because we're ignorant as Americans, we think Canada is -- everybody lives in Igloos and, you guys are on -- they got the Royal Mounted Police, they think that they wear the big hats and stuff. Most Americans don't know anything about Canada, and I was one of them. Coming up and then learning about the different cultures and backgrounds and the rich history of Turtle Island, which I learned recently, was amazing, and then being able to play. It wasn't about the money, it was about the opportunity to say, yes, I'm a professional athlete and this is everything I work so hard for. This is what my mother prepared me for. You know what I mean? To be at the highest level and to be successful and to not let it all go to waste, not to blow it. I'm thankful for that opportunity to play and I wish I was able to play longer than I was. Nevertheless, it was a great experience for me, and I don't regret anything. People ask me all the time; would you have gone back when you retired or what would you do differently? I would say nothing. I'm a strong believer in God. I believe everything happens for a reason. I'm a servant. I'm here to live my life according to His word and do His work. He (God) made it that I was able to play here, have a nice career and now start a family and have a second career as a football coach.

Amazing. What would be your favourite city that you travelled to play?

There's a lot of great cities in Canada and I'm blessed to have been able to see more of Canada than a lot of Canadians. Vancouver is a beautiful city. You're flying in and you're going over the mountains and you're seeing the different terrain. It's something that you don't see every day. That was always one of my favourite places to play. Regina, I know that may sound crazy, but just playing in Saskatchewan where that's all they have. Those fans are diehard Riders fans. Those games are going to be packed. They're going to be loud. So purely from a football standpoint, that's one of the best places to play is in Saskatchewan. From, a scenery standpoint, and from a cultural standpoint; Vancouver and Montreal, even though it was always hard to win out there. When I was playing, they had Calvio (Anthony Calvio) who was an outstanding quarterback, but realistically, there are no bad cities. People can say bad things about Hamilton, but Hamilton was home for me. It was rough and rugged; that's what I'm used to. Those fans were loyal, and they treated us like kings out there. I had a great experience in Hamilton. They brought the team back to Ottawa a couple years ago. I was there when that program started. So, yes, there is no real bad cities in Canada. It's a great place to play. Great league. I encourage anybody that is trying to play pro-ball and do something positive to play in the CFL.

What lesson would you take away from the NFL and CFL experience? What would be the one thing you would look back on and say this was the biggest lesson for me or an important lesson?

Being open-minded. Too many people are so close-minded. They get so stuck in their ways and their beliefs that they won't even give other opportunities or thoughts a chance, right? I took a risk coming up here to Canada. Like I said before, I had no idea what I was truly getting myself into. I just knew I was going to go have an opportunity to play football at a high level and then that was it. Some people look down upon the CFL as if it's not a good league or if it's not relevant or they only use it as a stop gap, or I'm going to play here for a year and get back to NFL. Well, things don't always work out like that. Come up here with the intentions to be the best version of yourself, to give yourself a chance to develop and grow as a football player, but more importantly as a person because there is a lot of growth that is involved when you're leaving home or leaving your country to come to a different country to learn the culture and to be a part of what's happening. Six months is a long time to be in a country and you can't just -- you can't fake it. Realistically, you have to be all in. You got to learn the ways of the city you're staying, you got to learn the rules of the game, you got to learn everything that's happening. So really embracing that opportunity and making the most of it.

Did any -- did you face any major obstacles in your career as an athlete and even as your time now as a coach and a recruiter, prior to that football recruiter? Any major obstacles that you faced?

I can go on for days with that one, the second part of the question. From a player's standpoint, it's just all about health and taking care of your body; that was something I did not do a good job of. If I can go back and change one thing, I would definitely invest more time and money and effort into taking care of my body. I was young and, felt like I could play forever. I was indestructible. To be 24, 25, you're on top of the world, you're at the strongest point you can be, life is great, and you kind of ignore the little things that start to add up and nag you. Definitely understanding that your body is the biggest thing that you need to invest in; mind and body -- excuse me, let me reframe. I'll say mind and body, my mind was great, but my body wasn't. I should have did a better job of mentally saying, I need to take some time and some money and invest in some of the things that I need to do to elongate my career. That would be the biggest obstacle I would say from a player standpoint.

From a recruiting standpoint, being in Southern Ontario, it's very competitive, which is my comfort zone. I'm used to being in competition because -- being from Long Island. There's a lot of things that are out of my control with this competition in a sense of each institution has their own set of academic standards. Each institution has different budget and we're dealing with a different generation of players now. A lot of these guys haven't played as much football, so they're a lot more raw from an understanding standpoint. A lot of guys are new to the game. A lot of guys -- the biggest thing right now is not enough players LOVE the game, they just like it. It's just something to do. It's a hobby. Whereas where I'm from and more so in America, where football is life, it's a way of life. It's how people escape their current situation. They go on to get out of the hood or make pathways for their family. They live and breathe it. Whereas here, it's okay if I miss a practice or if I don't get that workout in. Whereas back home it's no, you got to go do tour days. You got to make sure you're at 100% attendance. The biggest obstacle from a recruiting standpoint is A, finding the guys that love the game and B, finding the guys that love the game and have the grades to get into school. Now a lot of kids with the way things are going in elementary schools and high schools. These kids are not being held accountable to hand assignments in on time or they're not being -- they're able to resubmit things and it's so different. I'm dealing with that now with my son, trying to keep him motivated to say no, just because there is no deadline, you have to get this done and make sure you're doing it properly. You can't expect the teacher to give you a chance to resubmit or submit when you want. It's a big culture shock for these kids now when they're coming out of high school to university. Now the university gives you a syllabus for your class and you're evaluated based on these tests or you have a midterm and a final or these papers and if things are not submitted on time, your grade is deducted. Some profs, as you would know, won't even mark the paper, right? Having a chance for these kids to excel both on the field and off the field is the biggest challenge because some of them say they want it, but they don't want it for the right reasons. They want to do it for the GRAM (Instagram). They want to get their face on the screen just to get likes. No, if you love the game, you're not worried about getting on the screen, you're getting in the weight room, you're getting in the classroom, you're doing everything you need to do. That's the biggest challenge now, is finding guys that love the game and have the marks to get into school.

You're in a position now to mentor so many different young men. What are some of the things that happen in those like mentorship sessions? Is it a sit down meeting or is it mentoring through game or little side conversations?

Well, it all starts on the phone. When you recruit -- and this is my second favourite part of coaching. Obviously the first is being on the field and competing in games and winning games. The next one is recruiting, because now I get to get on the road and I get to hand select the guys that I'm trying to bring to this school and to this program. You identify them, whether you're watching their film or you're going to live games, you're talking to their high school coaches. Then you start talking to the kids, whether it be on the phone, whether it be on text, and you get to know them. You ask very serious questions. Do you love the game? How committed you are? Are you being the best version of yourself? Then you confirm that, through conversations with their coaches, with their parents; because I spent a lot of time talking to parents. You get a feel for how the kid was raised, and what his background was like. Did he come from two parents, or one parent, and were they strict? What are their values? What are their morals? What did they teach him? You look for consistency from his answers and from the parents. Over time as you build that relationship, you'll know if this kid is the right fit. That mentorship, it's organic.

Each kid I recruit is different from the next and, I have to be different versions of myself to be able to connect with some of these kids because some that might easily identify with some of the things you identify with and there's some where you have to find that bridge.

Well, me and this kid come from two different worlds, but how can we find that bridge? What's our commonality, starting with football. Then how do we build from there? More times than not, it's just all about life experiences, right? I'll be 40 years old this year. I've learned a ton in my life. It's all about, this kid is getting ready for prom, or this kid has got a life decision to make. Let me reflect back on the time I had to make a tough decision and you give him real life examples and experiences. You embark on him as much information as you can because it'd be selfish to keep it inside.

I'm a believer and I'm here to serve others. Who am I to not share my knowledge, everything I've learned, everything I've experienced with the next generation to help give them opportunities to be successful in whatever they want to be. That part I really love and enjoy because I can say I had a small part in their success. I helped them get on track or establish a goal or reach a goal or set a new goal or do something in their life that they didn't think they could do. I really look forward to those opportunities.

I think this is a good time to have that conversation around imparting healthy ideas of masculinity. How do these conversations take place in the football world?

So, things have changed. When I was a player, when I was in high school, football, it was a brute game. It was about size and strength and being physically tough. Everything was about toughness. Show me how tough you are. Show me your grit; blood, sweat and tears. You don't quit, you do everything. You run through a wall. It's yes sir, no sir.

Whereas nowadays, these kids, they're different, so we have to treat them differently. We have to coach differently. We can't expect them to do things how we did things. That was a big adjustment for me being an old school guy. Building that relationship and getting their trust and their buy-in is huge because they're not going to run through that wall unless they know that it's a good reason to run through the wall. Unless they know that you're going to run through the wall with them. They want to know what the result is after you run through the wall. Whereas, you know, back in the day, coach says run through the wall, you run through the wall. You didn't ask any questions. You didn't care what the result was. You didn't care about the why. Whereas this generation, you have to explain the why and if you don't have the answer for the why, you're not going to get any sort of results, right?

Speaking from a manhood standpoint, that word itself has been unpacked and been challenged and, taken in so many different directions. For me, I try to individualize it. I have my own theory and concept and understanding of what I think a man is and I have to ask everybody individually; what is your understanding? What is your mentality about manhood? What does it look like for you? That way we try to minimize the conflict because it's hard to try to change people's minds. I can give them a different way to look at things, I can change their perspective, but if they're so set on, this is how it is, then you're just going to keep running into a wall.

For me, I just talk about values; being a provider, being a protector, masculinity. I talk about chivalry because that's something that's a lost art. If you're the "man" in the relationship then, yes, you should be opening the door. You should be treating women with respect. You should be somebody that is a good leader, somebody that people can rely on, somebody that people can trust, right? All these factors really play into my mentality towards manhood. It goes beyond the physical attributes. You can say he identifies as male because he has a penis, and he likes women and that type of stuff. That can get skewed nowadays. It's crazy. They're talking about taking the gender identification off the birth certificate. Like biologically, either you're a male or a female. Now it's all about what do you identify as?

For me, when somebody asks me about manhood, it's about -- I'm thinking from a paternal standpoint. He is the father figure; he is the head of the household. Not to say the woman can't lead, not to say the woman can't provide, because you got to have two incomes, you got to have that stability, but there's got to be a separation. It's got to be clear cut that this is the male, this is the female and a lot of the attributes will cross over it. I'm not saying that a female can't provide, can't protect, can't promote, can't be a leader. I'm just saying from my perspective, the male, the alpha male is the one that is the guy that I know for a fact is going to stand on his head and make sure everybody is good. You can trust him. He is a man of his word. That's something I teach my son all the time. Think before you speak and say what you mean. That way you're not tripping over your words, you're not retracting things.

No, once you put it out there, it's out there. Make sure you take a deep breath, gather your thoughts and once you say it, that's your word. If you say you're going to do something, you got to do it, right? I'm going to say the same thing to my daughter because she needs to be the same way, but there is got to be a clear cut. This is male, this is female, and we have to stop complicating it because it's getting out of hand right now.

Thanks for sharing that. I think those conversations, they're happening in different spaces, but in sports, on teams, on football fields and hockey arenas, there is this opportunity where you have a collective of young men who need to understand (healthy masculinity). I like the way that you individualize it for them. They need to understand how their identity and their masculinity. They get to define it and take the good things and move it just beyond the physical. It's a mental thing too.

For sure.

It's a thing that can sway back between different -- if you're thinking on a spectrum, it doesn't have to be just one way. You can be different things at different times, but it requires you as a football player to think and act in a certain way. I love that, that's about trust. How you build rapport and that's super necessary. A lot of people are looking for trust right now.

Yes, and don't get it twisted, this took time. It took me time to get to where I am now, where I can say that confidently. For a number of years, and years ago it was this is a man, a man has a dick, and he does this and that. He is strong and he is that, and that's it. I don't want to hear nothing else. Whereas now, you have to be open minded. You have to be willing to say, not everybody is the same, not everybody thinks like you and acts like you, but you got to draw the line somewhere. You got to stand firm at some point. That's where I go back to my foundation and my laurels and say, at the bare minimum, this is what a man should act, think, behave like. This is what a woman should act, think, and behave like and there is a lot of crossover, but there's also a huge division. You got to act like a lady, you got to act like a man. This is where you got (emphasis added) to be a man. You got (emphasis added) to be a woman and you got to stay in your lane. Growth is important.

Growth. I think that's a good segue to what you've been doing with the Alliance. Can you explain what the Alliance is to people who will be listening?

The alliance is a group of staff, faculty, coaches, students and student athletes that came together and are trying to use our platforms to invoke change= on campus, in our community and amongst ourselves to be honest with you. I'll give you the background on how the group formed. You got to go back to the summer of 2020, the summer of George Floyd and Breonna Taylor. You had those two national lynchings that shook up the world. So here we are, myself, our athletic director, Roly Webster, the head swim coach, Jacque Beckford-Henriques and one of our events manager, Sadig [Sadig Sadig], came together and said, we have to do something. We are coaches, we are administrators, we have an opportunity. We're working in an athletic department and we interact with multiple student athletes on a daily basis that need some guidance and some positivity. They need something to give them a little boost. When you're dealing with the lynches, you're also dealing with COVID; it was just a bad time in history. We got together and said, what can we do?

We started out, and we brought on Rohan Thompson of Breakthrough Counselling Services. He is a personal friend of Roly. He is a guy that I've gotten to know very well the last three years. We started out with a healing circle, and we invited only people who identified as Black. Rohan did a great job of leading this discussion about the traumas of everything that we were going through, not just with George Floyd and Breonna Taylor, but historically, how Black people were stereotyped, looking at profiling and all these things. We had an open conversation to vent and to share experiences and to know that we got each other's back. Then we followed that conversation with an allyship meeting. This is open to anybody that wanted to learn about allyship, what that truly looks like, what it means, how you can be an ally. Again, Rohan led that conversation, and it was great because now, you were able to unpack. It's not just about raising your hand and checking a box and saying, I support Black Lives Matters. What are you doing to make a change? What are you doing to showcase that you do support and you're willing to help? Sometimes, people have to stand beside you. Sometimes people got to stand behind you, and sometimes they got to stand in front of you, not to block you, but to take on some of that stuff that you're being attacked with. That meeting was very successful and at the conclusion of those two meetings, we put a call to action out to the entire department. Anybody that wanted to get involved in this progressive group of people that are open-minded looking to create some changes is welcome to join.

That year we had about 20 members total, including the four co-founders. Here we are three years later and we've doubled our membership. We have a pretty strong student body population, something that we're definitely looking to increase because it's important to have students in the room and at the table. We can't assume we know what they're going through. They're all going through different things, they're having different experiences and understandings, and they have different goals. We have to be in alignment with their hopes, needs and their dreams. Having them be present to say, we need to do this, we need to do that, here is a suggestion that is important. The last three years, we've been growing exponentially. We've done a couple different community outreach events and the biggest thing that we've done in the past three years is we created a Learn to Swim program.

We understand the traumas and the fears that those who identify as Black have when it comes to water. A lot of us weren't raised with a pool in the backyard or didn't have access to the ocean or opportunities to swim and building that confidence and, how Black girls are with their hair. Having that Learn to Swim program was critical because now over the last two years, we were able to positively affect 48 [participants] in the first year and there's another roughly 75 people, which is a big number, especially those who identify as Black because that was a restriction. The first year there was 48, it was just women and girls. This year we opened up, it was co-ed so we had over 75 people enhance their ability and knowledge and confidence when it comes to swimming. That's something that we took a lot of pride in and we're happy with the progress the group has made.

We've done a lot of different educational activities, conferences, we brought in guest speakers, and, again, it's about education. Understanding what's truly happening right here in our backyard because it's very easy to point the finger. Look at all the lynchings in the US, and look at all those mass shootings. We had some stuff that's happened right here in Canada that a lot of people don't know about, it gets swept under the rug. Until you start to bring in guest speakers and start to do your homework and say, yes, this is happening right here, you're not going to know.

We try to support our student athletes. We try to educate ourselves and have these tough conversations that people try to gloss over. We always talked about starting internally, start with yourself, and start with your immediate family. These conversations, make it known what's going on. Make it known what's happening, how you can be. How you can affect change and how you can differentiate your own thoughts and your actions. That right there is a win. If we can get somebody who may not have known they had racist tendencies or who was uneducated to what's happening outside of their culture, that's a win in itself.

Then being able to have them have a conversation with one of their family or their friends and now that mentality changes. Now people are learning and understanding, and they actually care about what's happening is the next step. Then taking action is the third step. Understanding, care, and then action. We're proud of where we are. We still have tons of work to do and we're open for membership for those who are listening and yes, it's great.

Yes. It sounds like it's having an extremely positive impact on the community, the Waterloo community in particular. Now that you have the Alliance, have you found your recruitment efforts being a little bit easier when you're looking to recruit racialized men to play for the football program?

Not really. The football aspect is, I don't want to say different from the Alliance, but it's not something that I put at the forefront of the recruiting. It always falls back to number one; would you choose this school if you weren't playing football? Because, again, they're student athletes, right? So the student has to come first. They have to have the marks to get in. They have to have a program they can see themselves being successful in and graduating from, then football. Do you love football? Yes. Okay, are you willing to sacrifice, being a good teammate, and be the best version of yourself? Okay.

Now let's talk about the social side of things, right? What are some of your goals and aspirations socially? How do you want to grow as a person? If you happen to identify as Black, then understand, we have this organization that you could be a part of. I would say it's probably number three in that checklist; the alliance in terms of when I'm recruiting student athletes. It's a nice addition, but it's not something that a lot of guys that when they're 17, 18, are quite ready to embrace yet because they haven't had the background, the exposure to these opportunities.

When I was that age, I wasn't ready to go and get involved in anti-racist efforts. I was selfish. I was thinking about playing ball and chasing girls and stuff like that. I know these guys are the same way. It's a matter of, as they grow older, hey listen, you got to step outside of your comfort zone. You got to have some of these uncomfortable conversations. You got to be aware of what's happening when you're being profiled or stopped wrongfully. Being able to use your voice and say, no, I'm a Black student athlete and I need to be heard. It takes time and you have to have that relationship with the player to empower them to say, yes, he is ready.

Speaking about the Alliance and other Black centred work on campus, you clearly do anti-racism work and you're involved, have you been happy(with the efforts)? I don't want -- to quantify happy, it's a hard word to quantify [brief laughter]. One feels really different about that, but, are you pleased with the progress that you're seeing?

Yes. It was long overdue. Me stepping outside of my comfort zone of coaching and recruiting and now becoming somebody who advocates, who leads the charge, who is always involved in as many different, EDI meetings or events as possible, having a chance to meet and really do some serious work with the members of the BFC has been great. To see more Black educators on campus, to see increased amount of Black student athletes in the department has been great. We had that event last week, celebrating Black Excellence. That to me was the pinnacle of the progress we've made from when I started. I've been at Waterloo, and this is seven calendar years now, so half the time I've been in Canada, I've been here, and to see where we were to where we are is just a small glimpse of where we could be if we continue these efforts, if we keep getting people to care, if we keep getting people to act. It's an unlimited the opportunity. I'm definitely satisfied. I wouldn't say I'm happy, because -- if we want to get technical, but I say yes. I'm definitely satisfied with the progress. I think there's more work to be done. I think that if we ever get too happy, we're going to be lazy and complacent., so we always have to keep our foot to the -- pedal to the metal. It's nice to see things change for sure.

If you're thinking about Waterloo at 100 and where we'll be 50 years from now in the same vein of this conversation of where could we be, what do you envision?

Honestly, I could see it going both ways. If people like you and myself and Jessica Thompson and Chris Taylor ever leave or if this torch isn't passed, it'll revert back to where it was. You have to have people in place to keep it going,. We've done a great job of getting where we are, but we have to put people, policies and procedures in place to make it sustainable because we're not going to be here forever. We don't want to have all this effort and hard work and energy go to waste and say that was the peak of the Black, Indigenous and racialized efforts. -- Somebody made the analogy of a rubber band where if you stretch a rubber band as long (as it can go), but what happens when you let it go? It goes back to its original shape. We don't want that to happen here at Waterloo.

If we can continue to build this, if we can put the proper structure in place, if we continue to have the support and the people that are motivated and driven, both people who identify as Black and are non-Black allies, then it could be sustainable. Then we can continue to make changes and look back 50 or 100 years from now and say, yes, -- in 2023 when Waterloo was probably 3% Black and 1% indigenous, now it's, 20%. That'd be amazing, right? That effort needs to be duplicated. It needs to be grounded with a strong foundation to get it to that point because if we don't, it'll just go back to where it was.

So in that question of passing the torch, are there people that you are mentoring now that you feel could become part of this leadership role now?

Yes, we have a couple young coaches that we're mentoring. We have a Black Apprenticeship Coach program that we are in our first year of doing. There are four coaches now that we're mentoring in terms of just giving them opportunities to coach at a high level, to understand this business. At the same time, what we do beyond coaching is the support for equity, diversity, inclusion and opportunities of breaking down barriers and making changes. Though that program is just a start, (we are) always empowering our student athletes. Especially as they make that transition from undergrad to alumni because when they're in undergrad, they get tunnel vision especially the student athletes. They have very limited windows to study at this institution, to practice and prepare, have a social life and then to be an activist. It requires a lot of time and energy as well. As they get their feet underneath them after their second year, now we can kind of say, hey listen, there's a chance for you to do some more. We don't want to put too much on your plate when you're young, unless people that have proven that they can balance their time and do that or they came in with that mentality, I need to come in guns blazing. It's an individual case by case situation, but as they start to make that transition to third, fourth, even fifth year and get ready to graduate, now they're figuring out their life. They're figuring out what the network they need to help get them to the next level. It's a nice time to interject; hey, here is an opportunity to build your resume. Here is an opportunity to network. Here is an opportunity to meet some people that can help you and you can help them. Now have a chance to pay it forward because we wouldn't be anywhere without the alumni holding this down.

Thanks. I appreciate that answer. I mean to hear of that program. I'm really excited about what will come of it. As you recruit and thinking about how you settled here, what makes Waterloo unique?

Well, for me it was a chance to get back with my family. When I retired in 2010, I took a year off and in 2011 I had my strength and conditioning certification, so I was doing some personal training. I was working some odd end jobs and my son was young. I coached with the Tiger Cats for two years in 2011 and 2012 and in 2013, I got a job in Ottawa at Carleton University. They brought the program back. The program had folded in '98 and the alumni did a great job of fundraising and putting the pot together and had a plan in place. I was doing that for three years, '13, '14, and '15.

My wife couldn't find work in the city, so she wound up coming back down to the GTA. For the better part of two years, we did the long-distance thing (relationship)and it was very challenging because we had a young son at the time. Being away from them was a killer for me because that was my oldest and my only son. Watching him grow and develop without me was something that I promised myself I would never do, especially not having a father myself. When the opportunity to coach at Waterloo opened up, I jumped all over it because I was just going to be closer to home and be at home with my family. That was the first reason why I came here, was just to get back home from Ottawa, back to the Southern Ontario. The second was an opportunity to elevate myself in my career. I went from a position coach to a coordinator and now here it is, seven years later, I'm the Associate Head Coach. Growth from a professional standpoint was second. Then third would be the chance to do something special at a very prestigious academic institution.

You look at the University of Waterloo, it is top five in Canada, probably top 50 in the world in terms of the academics. Having a chance to--have success from a football standpoint at a high-level academic institution, it was interesting because it was challenging. Now I got to find the kids that have the marks, and that have strong marks. They can't be just getting D's and C's and getting degree. Now, they got to have As and Bs and be able to balance the academics with the athletics. One of the things I take a lot of pride in is when I started back in 2016, there was less than 10 Black players on the football team and now here it is seven years later and there's almost 40. I kind of think I had something to do with that. Going into those different neighbourhoods and inner cities and recruiting people who look like me and just giving them chances and say, hey, listen, if put your head down to work, if you can envision yourself being successful, you can do it here. You can do some really good things. This university has a lot to offer, especially with the co-op program.

It's been a struggle because of the academic standards. It's been a struggle because for years we weren't winning. Trying to recruit kids and sell the vision of come here, you can play early in your career, you can build this thing, you can be prideful and do some of the things that other people wouldn't experience at a different school. It's always a challenge because you have the Westerns (Western University), and you have the Mac’s (McMaster University). You have the teams that are established, you have the legacy, you have the tradition, and we're trying to build that here and flat out, some of these kids just don't want to do it. They're okay just going to that school and that's perfectly fine. Everybody has their own right to make their own decision, but it makes it challenging because you're constantly battling those teams and trying to prove yourself and make these guys believe and understand.

It doesn't feel like a job. I always told myself that if it did feel like a job, I would quit. I don't punch the clock. I don't check in at nine and leave at five. When a job is done, then it's done and I take my work home with me. There's a lot of people that when they're done work, work stays at work. Whereas for me, as a recruiter, if I'm recruiting a kid in BC and he calls me at 10 o'clock Eastern Time, I got to take that call because I might miss (them) on the next trip. It's more of --a career, it's not a job. It's not something that I hate. I actually love it and I'm looking forward to more years of success doing it.

I'm looking forward to more success as well and building off the last couple great seasons that Waterloo has had. If there's anything that you feel like we haven't spoken about, this is an opportunity to share. Maybe expand upon what Trey has meant to UWaterloo or anything else.

For sure. You mentioned Trey and he is a guy -- him and his brother Tyrell, you can't say one without the other. I understand Trey has all the accolades, but they were a package deal and they were a huge reason of why we were able to get to the level of success and national recognition that we were. They took a risk on us. They were two highly recruited kids, that had they went to a prep high school, they would've been playing the Division 1 football in the US, and they would've been making millions of dollars at this point, but they didn't. God had other plans for them. Thankfully they came to school here and they worked, they had their God-given ability and they helped change the culture here. (They) brought in this mentality of winning, confidence and rallied the team around them. Trey's accolades speak for themselves, and the biggest thing is, him being a Black quarterback playing at a high level and winning awards and doing things that other Black quarterbacks haven't had the opportunities to do. I say that because, there's been tons of Trey Fords before Trey Ford, but as always, the coaches who are White, GMs, presidents, owners, whatever, they just move (their) position. Oh, you got to play receiver, you got to play DB, you can't play quarterback. Well, you see what happens when they're given opportunities. Look at what is happening in the NFL. I would say probably 30% of the quarterbacks are Black now. Trey being here was monumental for the program to help us get where we were.

Now he is already two years removed, so what do we do next? How do we get back to that level of excellence? Can we ever get back there? Because we can hang on to Trey as long as we want to in terms of our memories, but that name is going to fade in the sand like all the other ones. He'll be up on the wall and (we’ll) say, yes, he did that, but what have you done lately?

This is the generation of right now, swipe left. What's happening now, two seconds later, right? Thankful for all of Trey and Tyrell's contributions, thankful that I had a small part in recruiting them and helping them develop and be the best versions of himself. I wished them all the best in their pro careers and their futures as fathers and husbands and everything. He set -- they laid the foundation for other aspiring Black quarterbacks and brothers and teammates to come and say, yes, I can go to this institution and make a name for myself and do something special and do something different.

Thanks for sharing that. The last thing I want to ask you as we're winding down is, how do you believe telling stories such as your story is important to the future?

You can't know where you're going unless you know where you've been. You have to be able to look back and reflect. I don't always like talking about myself. It's something that I've learned to do and learned to do well because as a coach, as you mentioned earlier, how do you connect with the players? Well, you talk about past experiences. It wasn't about bragging and saying, I made the NFL and played in the CFL. It was, I put the work in, I earned it and I gave myself an opportunity. I took a risk. Now that I'm able to reflect on it from that standpoint, it's not about ego. It's not about giving myself the glory. It's about giving God the glory, but it's about using my experiences, telling my story to the future (recruits) to be able to project and say, this is what I experienced. This is what I did. If you follow a similar path, you can get somewhere similar to where I was. You can learn from my mistakes. You can make sure the same history isn't repeated, which is huge. If we don't look back at what happened with the civil rights movement, with the Holocaust, with all these mass shootings, they'll just continue to happen. So you have to tell those stories. You have to educate because if we don't, they will rewrite history. They will try to change things, eliminate things as if they never happened, only tell partial truths, only tell things that they want to have documented and written down. We need to have as many perspective and experiences to have that understanding and opportunity to project the future and make sure that history is always reflected properly.

One hundred percent agreed. Is there anyone else that you should feel that we should interview for this project? Any other Black student, faculty or staff?

All of them.

All of them.

Because there's not many. The fact that I can name off the five or six department members in the Athletic Department is sad. I should have to get a piece of paper and go down and list and say, but I can say. Yes, we got Jacky, we have Rushon, we have Rashid, we had Sadig, but he left. The fact that there's not that many (is a problem).

I'm thankful to have that many more members of the Black Faculty Collective from when we started to now. You have more faculty hires, but as many as you can get because now you can piece the story together; from my perspective, from the next perspective. The fact that there's not nearly enough (is a problem). Hopefully in the future when we look back and there's other orators like yourself that are hosting these interviews and say back in '23 we were only able to do 10. Well, now here it is in 2073 we did 40. Or in 2073, we only had one or we didn't do it at all. Somebody just goes through a box and says, what's this (referring to the Oral History Archive)? I would say try to do as many as you can. Have fun with it because, if we don't lay this foundation, if we don't show them what we're capable of doing, it'll just be an afterthought. It'll just be a relic. It won't be an actual action item.

I think I'll do that. I have been really excited to have this conversation with you. This interview to hear about what your life has been, how instrumental your mother was to your upbringing and that hard work and perseverance is carried all the way through your childhood to what you've continued to do now for your children and your family. The mentorship aspect is something you take to heart, and it's been reflected in the programming that you have done. Wishing you all the greatest success and in all of the facets of your life. It was a pleasure speaking with you, DA.

All right. I appreciate the opportunity. This is amazing. I hope that you have many more conversations like this in the near future and we can really lay a nice groundwork for others to follow this lead and hear people's stories, connect, network, be able to work together, inspire change and be the best version of ourselves.

All right. Thank you.

My pleasure.