Interview with Samantha Lange

Today is July 25th, 2023. This is an interview with Samantha Lange for the Oral History Project Phase 2. The interviewer is Jermal Jones. With that, we'll get started. Thank you so much, Samantha, for joining me today for this Oral History Project.

Of course. Thanks for having me.

We'll just jump right in. And I just want to know a little bit about your family background, where were you born, where did you grow up? Tell me a little bit about your parents, if you have any siblings, things like that.

Yeah. I grew up in Trinidad, born and raised. I was born in St. Joseph, which is more Central Trinidad. I grew up in the same house my entire life from age zero to 19 in Maraval, which is Northwest Trinidad. I have a twin sister. I am the second born, three minutes apart. Or was it 10 minutes? Every time I ask my dad, he gives me a different answer so, when that's true, it is yet to be seen. I grew up with a single dad. My mom passed away two days after me and my sister were born. I just grew up my whole life, me and my dad, my sister, my dad's girlfriend or partner who he's had for, I want to say, 15 years. I would say, growing up, we've had -- my dad, he's a very act of service kind of guy so I feel like our house is always this space with people in between. We've just had different people, just live with relatives for periods of time, so we've always had an extended household. It was always me, my sister, my dad, my dad's girlfriend, maybe a cousin for a few years, or two cousins for a few years, like an aunt. So always had at least one extended family member living with us growing up.

It was like a home base?

Yep, very much. Our house is always the spot for any family event.

Can you tell me a little about your relationship with your sister or family?

Yeah. My sister, I think we're pretty close. As it's given the twins, we used to fight a lot growing up. I think part of the reasons -- we ended up going to universities both in Canada, but I think part of the reasons we separated is, because of each time when we were picking schools, we were really bickering and we're like, "I think we need to separate. We can't go to the same school." But we've always been very close. We bicker, but it's very much all love. I would say she's my best friend.

While you were in your school years, was there anything that really stuck out for you?

As you mentioned, my sister we would always be compared a lot. I was more of the brainiac sister, and she was more the social one. We would always be compared like grades or our friends -- same friends, so our friends would compare us. Not in a negative way, but it's like, oh, Sharon, my sister, she's so this and Sam is so that. We were polar (opposites). We're fundamentally very similar, but our interests are very different. I think we're very different people, the comparisons stick out to me.

What were some things that you excelled at in school? What were your best subjects?

Math, for sure and physics. Math is always one of the subjects I always did really well in. Sciences. I was never an English girlie. I struggled a bit with writing pieces because English has never been my strong suit, but math, for sure. Numbers, I have always been very good with numbers.

I guess that led you to pursue physics at the University of Waterloo?

Yes.

Can you tell me about what it was like thinking about becoming an international student? Walk me through that process and deciding on UW.

For me, I knew I wanted to leave Trinidad from a very young age. I always, I don't want to say I wanted more for myself, I think in hindsight, Trinidad has a lot, but growing up on a very small island, I was like, "There has to be more. I don't want to stay here my whole life. There's more out there for me in the world." Also being a queer Black woman, Trinidad's a very pretty conservative country, but I didn't know I was queer until I came to Canada. I think, subconsciously I knew that, "Okay, I as a queer person," even though I didn't realize I need to go somewhere where it's safe for me to be out essentially, that was a lot of my thinking in terms of leaving Trinidad. In hindsight, I should have given it much more thought. I came to Canada with very little knowledge of what life was like here. I was like "Oh, it's the first world, it's nice." I heard people are nice in Canada and it's very multicultural, "I should be fine." I feel like I did not know much about Canada before coming here, and I maybe should have done some more research before making the choice of where I wanted to go. I was more focused on getting out of the country than I was on where I was choosing to go.

What makes you think that? We talk about this a lot in Canada, was it the weather?

Well, I came to Canada, I was like, I had nothing for the cold weather. I think the weather is one thing, but the weather I can handle, I think it's more the perceptions I had about what Canada was culturally. I think I experienced a lot of culture shock in my first year here because Canada is very different from Trinidad. Trinidad's very polychronic, Canada's very monochronic like people, everything with being on time. I think people here are a lot more passive than Trinidad. While in Trinidad, if someone doesn’t like you, they'll say it to your face, here, I had to learn, okay, there's some subtleties here. Just because people are nice doesn't necessarily make them your friend or, you know what I mean? I think people here are very passive, while in Trinidad, we're very upfront. So I think just things like that, I really struggled with in my first like two years in Canada. And I still learn things. I feel like I learn new things about Canadian culture the more I stay here.

And is there anything campus service-wise that helped you with that transition at all, like figuring out that culture?

No. I wish --

No?

I feel like there's-- I should say yes or no. I think I wish I knew more about campus services my first and second year because I did not really know what was available to me as an international, and there's so much. There's International Peer Community, there's just International Student Experience team. I worked with them and it was through working with them that I learned there's so much services I wasn't even aware of that I could even access. So I really felt like, in my first years, I was just rolling in the wind, just really trying to truly punch it, trying to figure stuff out as I went along. I don't really think I accessed much campus services in my first two years. I do now. In my last two years, I've definitely taken advantage of everything that campus can give me, whether it's counselling, accessibility. My first two years, I was very much about the struggle culture that is Waterloo. No, I need to be struggling, that's how it's supposed to be. Yeah.

Maybe we'll come back to that in a little bit, but I'm interested in, you chose physics and what was the story behind choosing physics?

So in Trinidad, we have these exams called CAPE or A-levels or A-level exams so you have to pick three subjects and I knew I wanted to go into science, didn't know what yet, but I knew I was good at those subjects so I would do that. So I picked pure math, physics and chemistry. And when I was trying to pick what subject I was going to do, I was like, "I have no idea." I was like, "I don't know what I'm applying for, we'll see." I knew I liked math, but both chemistry and physics have a lot of math in it so I think -- it's so stupid, I think I wrote down a bunch of majors and I had them in a jar and shook them up and I think I pulled one out. And I think I had pulled out chemistry and I realized I didn't want to do that so I was like, "Okay, well, clearly I want to do physics." I think for me, physics is just like math puzzles, I would say physics is math puzzles and that's what I think drew me to that.

So puzzles are something that you enjoy doing in your free time?

Yeah. Sometimes. I think I get very frustrated very easily. I shouldn't say easy, but when I can't figure something out, I do get very frustrated. I'm like, "Why am I doing this?" But, yeah.

Okay. Well, I wanted to touch base with you around where you've evolved in your undergraduate degree process. So you're in physics, but I know that you are involved in some other things as well like --

Yeah.

Yeah. Can you tell me a little bit about that?

Yeah. I'm very involved. I think every year I was choosing to do something different. When I came in first year, I joined, I think it was the International and Canadian Student Network, and that was really good to interact with other international students and get involved in planning events and stuff. And that was cool, but I think they were disorganized when I joined so I left that. And then, in my second year, I did Residence Ambassadors, because I wanted money, but also I wanted to talk to students about my experience in university and help guide. So I had that in my second year. And then pandemic hit so I wasn't really doing much. And then, I think second class during the pandemic, I joined University of Waterloo Science Society (The Science Society SciSoc), which I had always gone to SciSoc's events and stuff, but I think through Science Society, I ended up meeting a lot of people who I feel like our interest just aligned, people who care about students, people who were very open about their experiences and how difficult it's been being in STEM, whether it's bio or chem or whatever. So I really found a bit of a community there. And I've been in SciSoc ever since basically. Also, a huge part, I've been a part of FemPhys, which is short of feminist physics. It started as a club for women physics, but it's really a space for just marginalized people in STEM in general. We have people in bio. We have an English lit person now. It's really a space, become a hub or safe space for marginalized people, whether they're racialized, whether they're queer and trans. So that space has been very good for me. I've been in and around FemPhys since first year, but I only really joined after the pandemic because a group of my friends, we brought the club back because a lot of the execs have graduated and they weren't doing anything. So those are the two clubs. I think SciSoc and FemPhys, in my last two years, have really formed my sense of community and my passion for creating community for other people, especially the Black students in physics or just in STEM in general. Creating that space where we feel welcomed and a sense of belonging and feeling less lost, I should say.

I like that. I appreciate you sharing sort of the things that you've been involved in in that way. And then, obviously, I should say this, our connection is through the Black Studies program.

Yeah.

Can you tell me what taking those courses have meant to you?

I feel like, I think they've done me a lot of good this past year because I only started last fall. And I was one of the first people to take Black Studies courses. I think, for me, I’ve had very -- I'm in physics, it's a very white male-dominated field, and even the women in that space are predominantly white. I think I only really met another woman in physics last year maybe, maybe last January, February, and I think -- her name's Deborah. And meeting her I think was a turning point for me because of my time in physics. I was like, "Right, there's more of us. It's not just me here fighting the good fight by myself." And I think speaking to her about her experiences and the things that she's gone through and how I've gone through very similar things, it reminded me how important anti-racism work is and how important it is to speak, just to have someone to talk about Black issues. Because I felt like, when I met her, we sat down and we spoke for five hours about just our experience in physics and our experience being Black women in physics in particular. And I was like, "Damn, I had never had someone to talk to about these things." And I think doing Black Studies courses has been very important for me to be able to, one, validate things I've experienced and then be able to understand the history behind why I've experienced things I've experienced and be able to articulate my thoughts and feelings about everything. I've never had a space to do that academically. Well, since being in Canada, I've never had a space to really talk about these things or write about these things and I think these courses have really helped shape my thinking and just validate the things that I have been going through and I just didn't have the words to describe what I was going through.

And with that, do you feel like you've had a faculty or a staff admin that's been supportive of you in your journey taking Black Studies programs, but also within the physics department?

Taking Black Studies in particular, not outside of girls or the profs, not really. Physics is very -- if you're talking about physics, if you talk to anyone that's modernized in physics, it's a very tough department. It's very white male-dominated and they don't really care about anything that's not -- in my opinion, they don't really care about anything that's not physics related. So I don't really feel like I've had much support in that way in the physics department. I had a lot of support from my Black Studies profs, but I would not say I've had much support within physics to do these things. Not anyone's been unsupportive, but no one's been actively supportive.

And what do you think -- maybe you don't have the answer, but what do you think could change that or what changes do you think need to be made in that respect?

I think the whole entire physics department. I was saying for a while, and I've spoken to faculty about this, there needs to be a huge culture shift within physics because there just seems to be a lack of care for students in general, but particularly students of marginalized identities, especially those that aren't white women. There seems to be a lot of care for white women and supporting people that are modernized in that way, but supporting trans students, supporting queer students, supporting Black students. And there also seems to be this idea that, even though a lot of people within physics are Asian, like South Asian, east Asian, et cetera, there's still not tailored support for them and there's this idea that, because we have a lot of students that are Asian, they're fine. They're fine. The majority, they're fine. Not all of them are so I think there needs to be a huge culture shift in general within physics to -- -- aspects of anti-racism or Black feminist thought or, et cetera. Sorry, did I cut off for a sec?

Just a little bit, but you came back so it felt like it shrank through. So I guess that might lead me into another question here which is, we've been having a lot of conversation on campus around Waterloo At 100 and it's been the president's mission or vision for what the university might look like in our hundred year or 2057. So if you were to have a hope, what would you hope to see at Waterloo when it reaches its hundred year?

I would hope to see an overhaul in, at least within my department, how the science faculty department is run. I would love to see more, not just diversity within faculty or staff, but I would say diversity of thought or more of change in how we do things, like bringing in the Indigenous ways of knowing. I feel like that's something we've been talking about a bit more in the science faculty, incorporating Indigenous ways of knowing and their teachings into our learning. I want to see spaces or initiatives to help marginalized students. I want, when I ask people how their experience has been within physics or at Waterloo, people don't have a long share of complaints about how the school doesn't care and how they feel worthless in a sense, how they feel like the department or the school is making them feel worthless. I want people to feel better about coming here because I feel like, when I talk to first years and when I talk to fourth years, fourth years are very jaded, at least those in physics, and have had a bit of a rough experience, especially those that are marginalized or women of colour that I talk to. I would love to hear better stories or more positive experiences from students.

Mm-hm. I like that. So I guess, where do you see your career going?

That's a good question. I have no idea. I'm now in my last term, I'm getting ready to graduate, going to grad school so I know I'll be doing physics research coming up, but I hope that I'm able to somehow balance my passions in physics and my passions in doing anti-racist work. I would love to be volunteering or doing work with students, so communities, bringing people into physics or bringing people into STEM because I think there's not a lot of us, and creating more of a safe space for Black women in physics in particular, creating a space for us. So I hope that I'm able to do that moving forward in my career while still being very invested in physics. I don't want EDI work to be my main thing, I want it to be something that complements my work and enhances my career in a sense, so.

I understand that. Well, congratulations on pursuing graduate school.

Thank you.

What in particular are you pursuing?

Subatomic physics.

Can you explain that to the audience?

Yeah. So I don't know exactly what I'm doing right now, but subatomic physics looks at subatomic particles, so we're looking at neutrinos, we're looking at electrons, we're looking at leptons and quarks and all that kind of cool stuff, small atoms and learning about how they work because we don't really know. Also, we're also discovering new particles like we just discovered Higgs boson recently. So discovering new particles, learning about how particles work, trying to see if we can manipulate things to, I don't know, find some -- because, I know sometimes physics is just finding out things, there's not a lot of application so finding some applications, could things be used in like radiation, could things be used in nuclear physics, stuff like that. So that's subatomic physics is, looking at small particles and just learning about how they work, and if there's any applications to manipulating them. Yeah.

Cool. That's cool. Very outside of my realm of expertise. Very very little expertise in that area.

Okay. That's okay. Same.

I'm glad that you're taking it on. And I look forward for you to have a great experience. I guess, a couple of things that I want to ask are like, what has been a really outstanding memory of your time here?

Outstanding? I'm trying to think in a positive. I think for me, I think last term -- last term, yes, I was the president of University Science Society and I think, coming out of that -- I think while I was doing that I was like, "I'm doing such a terrible job, oh my God, what is going on?, I'm not feeling a lot of imposter syndrome," but I think coming towards the end of my term, I got a lot of positive feedback from students in the club about how I'd been a positive impact." And I don't want to get emotional, but talking to the Black students about how I've been a positive impact and now I've helped, I think that was very meaningful to me.

Thank you for sharing that. I'm glad that people were able to share that with you, which I guess would speak to your leadership. And on that, what has been a piece of leadership advice that you received that was really helpful in that role?

I think listening to students. I think that's the most important thing. I think people just want to feel heard. People want to feel heard, people want to feel listened to, people want to feel like someone cares about them and their experience. So that's my advice for leaders going forth and the next presidents, I would say, talk to students. People would always be like, "Sam, you know, everybody." I'm like, "Yeah." If someone walks through an office, if someone walks to your door, I greet them. I want to know how people are doing. I want to know, not just the very, how are you, you're doing good, asking people about their experiences within STEM, the experience within their faculty, how can we improve things, what can I do to help? Whether that's like in a me, a Sam capacity or a president capacity, how can I support? I think just listening to people and really just following people experiences and just giving them a chance to be heard is very important.

I like that. What advice would you give to Black students at University of Waterloo?

I would say find your people. I think that was something I struggled with a lot throughout my time, was finding the right people, finding people that made me feel like valued and supported. So my advice is, find your community. It might take some time, it might take a few years, it took me a few years, but I think keep looking, try different things, get involved and you'll find your people eventually.

All right. As we're coming to close, one of the questions that I have for you, what do you think the importance is of telling stories like yours and other Black faculty and staff here at the University of Waterloo?

I think it's important people to know they're not alone. I think a lot of something that I thought in my undergrad was that I'm the only one who's experiencing things I'm experiencing, and that was not the case. So I think it's important to hear people's stories, understand we're not alone, and also looking at how far we've come. If you told me, when I was in high school, I'd be doing physics right now, I'd be like, "You're lying. That's a joke." I wanted to be a vet at one point and somehow I'm doing subatomic physics. I'd be like, "What the hell is that?" So I think just looking at how far we as a people have come, that is something. Even if I told my grandma what I was doing, who passed unfortunately, she'd be like, "What is going on?" So I think it's looking at how far we've come. Also, looking at far maybe we haven't come, seeing how much work there's still left to do with regards to anti-racism work. I think that's the importance of these stories.

Is there anyone that you think that I should interview next that is in your realm of knowledge?

Oh. And does it have to be a Black student?

Yeah. I think predominantly we're thinking around Black identity so it could be a Black student, it could be a Black staff member, it could be a Black faculty.

That's fine. My person is Black anyway. Or else, I can think of other people. But I would talk to Deborah Chemutai who is the other Black woman physicists I met. So I think she has a very interesting experience in physics. She's had a really rough go, but she has a very interesting experience. And thank you. I think she's interesting. If you're looking at alumni -- are you talking to alumni or no?

We've interviewed a few alumni, but happy to hear any recommendations?

Chanda Prescott-Weinstein. She's my mentor and she is an alumni in physics as well. And she's a very big part of physics so I think I would, yeah.

Okay. And then, lastly, is there anything that we haven't talked about that you're like, "Oh, actually, I wanted to maybe get this out into the world?"

I would say maybe stressing the importance of self-determination. I think that's something I felt a lot in my Black Studies courses and a message that I want to put out there, is I think we as Black people have a lot put on us like controlling images, how we should be, whether that's from dominant culture, like your family telling you who you should be. I think it's really important for people to forge their own path and trust in themselves. Trust your gut, trust in yourself, do what you want to do with your life because you are the one who has to live it. So define who you are by yourself for yourself.

Okay. Well, those are all the questions that I have for you. It's been a pleasure to get to know you better, learn more about who you are and where you're going. I hope to see some great things. Maybe you'll be the next Donna Strickland --

We'll see.>> No, no, we'll see. We'll see.

But it's been a pleasure, Samantha.

Thank you.

All right. Thank you.

Alrighty. Have a good rest of your day.