Interview with Brandon Sweet
- Anne MillarHi Brandon.
- Brandon SweetHello. How are you?
- Anne MillarI'm good. How are you?
- Brandon SweetI'm doing all right. Thanks. I had a bit of trouble logging on. Sorry.
- Anne MillarIt's no problem. I did too. It was asking me for a passcode, which it hasn't done before.
- Brandon SweetOh, nice. Yeah, I had to update. It was like, okay, now we're updating Zoom.
- Anne MillarMe too. It's always when you need to go right away that it doesn’t.
- Brandon SweetTotally Yeah.
- Anne MillarDo you have any questions before we begin?
- Brandon SweetOh, nothing really comes to mind question wise. So I guess I'm good.
- Anne MillarGreat. So as I said in the email, we'll just kind of keep this conversational and easy and light and see where it takes us.
- Brandon SweetSure. That sounds like a plan.
- Anne MillarPerfect. So I'd love to begin by having you describe your family background, where you grew up, when you were born.
- Brandon SweetOh, sure. Okay. All right. So I was born in in Guelph, Ontario, in 1977. And I lived in Guelph, from '77 to '89 -- no '88, actually. Lived in Elora for a year and then moved to Waterloo in ‘89. My parents were both teachers in -- at the time, it was the Wellington County Board of Education. And now I think it's the Upper Grand District Board of Education or something like that. But yeah, they were both teachers, which was great because we all got the same holidays, my brother and I, growing up. We would have, you know, March break and summers together and stuff like that, which was very nice. And I thought that was normal.
- But of course, I found out later, not so much.
- Brandon SweetYes. Can I ask what they taught?
- Anne MillarSure. My mom was -- well, she started teaching in the late '60s. And I think it was mostly elementary school. She taught for a year in Toronto and then spent the rest of her career in Guelph. She retired in 2000. And so she had bounced around from, you know, Grade 1 to Grade 2. And because of the timing in which she retired, she immediately went back and started supply teaching for another -- I want to say another 10 years, perhaps, but, you know, as long as her health would allow, I suppose. And so she was one of those teachers that double dipped and continued to earn money while having that great pension on the side as well. But it let her -- it funded her and my dad's travels around the world in retirement.
- Anyhow, my dad, he was -- he came later to teaching anyways than my mom did. And he actually went to a special -- I guess he did some special training for teaching hearing impaired children and did a stint at sort of a -- I want to say like sort of a boarding school in Milton. I think it might actually still be open. But it was a special school for students with various learning disabilities and some of them relating to hearing. And then from there, he sort of became an itinerant specialist who would go from school to school in the school board or the district, wherever there was a student who was hearing impaired and was integrated with the rest of their classmates. So he would work with the -- they had these FM units that would plug in, kind of like an assistance device.
- And so he became adept at, you know, swapping out the cartridges and keeping those things running for the students -- for the various students. And then he did a stint back at the School Board Office. And he retired in about 2007. And unlike my mom, he never looked back and never supply taught. And yeah, so that was that. They've been retired for quite some time now. They have -- sorry.
- Brandon SweetNo, go ahead.
- Anne MillarI was going to say that for a brief stretch, I actually went to the same school that my mother taught at in Guelph. So that was kind of fun.
- Brandon SweetOh, fun. My mom was a teacher, too. And I can remember the day she supply taught my class.
- Anne MillarOh, nice. They wouldn't let me be in the class with my mom. But I was there. And it was always weird seeing my mom around in, like, teacher mode. And even once or twice, my dad showed up because there would have been a student at my school. So that was very weird seeing your parents walk around in a school context because it's supposed to be very divided, right? Like, your parents are at home, not where you're going to school. But for me, it was a little different.
- Brandon SweetSo would you say academics were then very much pushed and encouraged?
- Anne MillarI would say so. I think my parents had -- they had pretty high expectations for me, I guess. So I did my best to deliver.
- Brandon SweetAnd were you a good student?
- Anne MillarYou know, I was. I was something of a know-it-all. I was that kid, which is funny because things have kind of changed. But I was the kid who always had his hand up to answer every question. Whether or not it was going to be the right answer, I don't know. I guess I liked the sound of my own voice. So I just tried to participate. And that had its advantages and disadvantages, I think.
- Brandon SweetWere you the oldest? Or was your brother the oldest?
- Anne MillarI am the oldest, yeah. Yeah. My brother is two years younger. So we had a lot of the same friends, played with the same toys, to the point where I think at one point, my mother was buying two of pretty much everything. So we doubled up on a lot of GI Joes and He-Man figures to cut down on the inevitable fighting.
- Brandon SweetOh, wow. What subjects did you like particularly when you were young?
- Anne MillarExcuse me. Well, I really enjoyed anything to do with history. And I guess -- what would that be? I guess we actually did learn history. History, geography, social studies. And by the time I got to junior high, I suppose, music was front and centre as well. I should mention that my mother was a piano teacher as well throughout her adolescence and throughout her adult life, actually. She always taught on the side. She wound up being like the, you know, the pianist for the school choir and stuff like that at Shelldale in Guelph, where she taught. And she played piano at church. And so that also rubbed off. You know, we were a pretty musical family as well. And I took piano lessons from a young age.
- Didn't go quite as far in the Royal Conservatory that my mom did. She got her - I think it's the Grade 10 certificate, and I only barely scraped my way to Grade 9. And I did -- I actually taught piano as well as a teenager to a couple of students just to keep me in pocket money in lieu of having a part time job. But yeah, so music became a pretty big part of -- as long as we had music classes, I was always going to -- I was always signing up for music classes right from Grade 7 to right through high school. Like, I played in the concert band, the jazz band. When our high school did musicals, they had a pit orchestra. And so I played trombone in that. So that was a big part of my high school experience anyways was being involved in music, although, as they say, there's a difference between being in a band in high school and being in band in high school.
- I was not in a band. I was not one of the cool kids. But for all the music nerds, the school band nerds, I was right in there in high school.
- Brandon SweetYou had your community in high school.
- Anne MillarExactly. Yeah. That's for sure. So yeah, in high school, history classes were big. English was big. Music was big. Phys Ed, not so much. Science, I stopped in Grade 10. Math, I struggled. I struggled valiantly against and got the bare minimum. I think even -- my mom even hired a tutor. And she couldn't help. She couldn't help too much. So I scraped by. And then, you know, you did the mandatory French stuff. But I mean, I got through it anyways.
- Brandon SweetYes. Oh, wow. Did you have any teachers that had a particular influence?
- Anne MillarYeah. When I was in high school, I had a music teacher. His name was John McFarlane. And he was a professional musician turned teacher. I think a lot of people go into that mode. If they're not going to be a, you know -- if being a musician is not their main career or maybe it is their main interest but then they’ve got to supplement it with something like teaching music. But he was a great influence on me, opened up a lot of interesting, you know, musical genres and artists that I had never heard of and that sort of thing. And he, I think, inadvertently steered me towards certain things that I think he wasn't really focused on. Like, he introduced me to -- he would have been my jazz band teacher, for example. So he was pushing a lot of jazz, a lot of jazz greats and, you know, musical education about that.
- But he also introduced me to synthesizers and drum machines and the idea of making music with computers, which was something that I ended up doing sort of as a hobby, you know, for the next 20 plus years of my life. So he had -- I took keyboard classes with him. And they had a whole bunch of keyboards linked together with drum machines and all sorts of fun stuff in the music lab, I guess. But I kind of fixated on that. There was an old Atari computer that had a music sequencing program on it that I got into and started playing around with that. I think he would have been -- you know, he would have wanted me to learn more about jazz and that type of music. But I was hooked on electronic music by then.
- Anne MillarWow. And that -- you're kind of at the beginning of that or not in the beginning, but in the midst of it, right, that's its height when it's really coming, using all of these computers and electronic synthesizers and things like that.
- Brandon SweetYeah, for sure. I mean, I learnt about the rave scene in high school and DJ culture and all that kind of stuff. And that was really when it was taking off and sort of at its, you know, its cultural peak. But nothing really goes away anymore. It just comes back in different -- you know, different manifestations and whatnot. So yeah, but that was kind of where, you know, some formative stuff in my life was being worked out. I think that happens to a lot of people in high school, right? Everyone always loves the music they listened to in high school. And then from there, you know, do you ever keep growing as a person? Well, some people would say yes, and some people would say no.
- Anne MillarYes, but there is some kind of emotional connection to the music of your youth, of your adolescence.
- Brandon SweetHundred percent. Hundred percent.
- Anne MillarYes. Can you talk a bit about your decision to go to Wilfrid Laurier University? And then you studied political science and history, I know.
- Brandon SweetAnd you wanted -- did you want to stay close to home? Was that part of it?
- Anne MillarWell, actually, my first choice -- going back to the music thing -- was that I was trying to get into the jazz performance program at the University of Toronto. And I worked very closely with my music teacher who had connections all through -- like, you know, if you played an instrument in Ontario, my teacher probably knew you kind of thing. Right? So he hooked me up with a tutor in Toronto, and I did some -- you know, I did some lessons with him on the trombone again and then actually did an audition at UofT but didn't get in. So that was, you know, one door closed. And I was looking at my other options, and I guess Laurier was at the top of the pile.
- Brandon SweetYes. Oh, it's always hard in your adolescence when you have those first kind of exposures to not getting something that you've worked hard to achieve.
- Anne MillarYeah, it was a bit of a -- it was a bit of a hit for sure to the old ego. And I did keep playing trombone for a good two to three years after high school. But after that, I kind of hung it up. I still got it around here somewhere. But it needs to be -- it needs to have some dents knocked out of it, let's say that.
- Brandon SweetHave your kids heard you play?
- Anne MillarYeah. I've brought it out once or twice and then sent them running from the room with their hands over their face. So yeah, they're more acquainted with the work that I do with electronic instruments and whatnot. So that's a little more their speed.
- Brandon SweetWhat was your experience like in your undergraduate years?
- Anne MillarWell, at the time, Laurier was still kind of like the -- it was like high school up the street kind of thing, as the people at UW called it. It was not a big school. Still, geographically, it's not that big. But it's grown up. And it's gotten a lot more high density, we'll say, on the little campus that it has in Waterloo. And yeah, I mean, you know, I kind of fell into a -- fell into the political science major. I thought it was a good -- seemed like a good fit. And actually, I wasn't consciously trying to get a history minor, but I just accumulated enough elective credits. They were like, hey, we can put this on your diploma. I was like, all right. Fine by me. So yeah, it was -- that was a good time. Laurier at the time had -- well, it had a lot of school spirit, I'll say, which, I guess, was kind of what I was expecting.
- Not that I participated in it. But it was definitely a -- definitely had a distinct culture, I suppose, a lot of it having to do with the wearing of, you know, flannel shirts. And what do I remember the most? The Water Buffaloes Club with the blue fur hats, just like the Flintstones, that was a big deal for some reason. I don't know.
- Anne MillarDid you have kind of your eyes set on a career goal or what you wanted to do after your undergrad?
- Brandon SweetWell, the childhood aspirations were always like, oh, I want to be Prime Minister when I grow up. And of course, you know, that's actually -- that's just a -- it was basically a childhood fantasy, of course, especially when I struggled so hard with French in high school. I was like, you know what, I probably -- it's probably not in my -- not in the cards, we'll say. But so then I downgraded to just being, oh, man, well, maybe I'll be a lawyer. Right? And so you have to get some degree. And political science seemed like a good jumping off point. And that lasted -- that dream lasted until about the first time I took a mock LSAT exam, sort of as a prep for applying to law school, which I guess is, like, a second entry program. So you're in the middle of your degree, and then you apply to law school, that sort of thing. And for whatever reason, I was like, nah, maybe not. So there wasn't a lot of – I didn't have a big plan, we'll say, after that.
- In fact, what ended up happening was some of the elective courses that I started taking in English, actually, and Communication Studies, by about third year, that kind of piqued my interest a little bit. And I was like, well, if I'd known about these -- if I'd known about, you know, rhetoric, technology and culture and, you know, cultural studies and that sort of thing, if I'd known about that stuff when I was younger, I would have maybe chosen a different discipline to go into than political science. But it was fun. They were interesting courses. And especially in the current -- the current cultural moment, I think they were a pretty good grounding anyways.
- Brandon SweetYeah. It's a good foundation.
- Anne MillarYeah. Yeah. For sure. So I wound up -- as my degree went on, I kind of focussed more on the political side of communications because there were a lot of -- you know, there's a lot of academic work done in the area of, like, well, political communication and speeches and speech making and political organization and that sort of thing. So I sort of focussed a bit on that by the end of my -- by the end of my undergraduate program at Laurier.
- Brandon SweetWow. What about your decision to pursue your master’s? Was that something you kind of came to in your fourth year, or when were you considering that?
- Anne MillarWell, I mean, I feel like there was maybe a family expectation that I would just immediately go to grad school afterwards. And I didn't really question that. As long as my parents kept paying my tuition, I didn't really care what it is that I was doing. Right?
- Brandon SweetYes.
- Anne MillarSo I mean -- yeah, so it was a no brainer. I think I enjoyed -- I certainly enjoyed the academic environment. So I considered -- you know, I considered going on, like, well, maybe I could get a PhD or, you know, get involved in the academic world that way. But I don't think I really had a -- I didn't have a clear sort of strategy for that. But then I -- so the first step, of course, would be to do a master's degree, which I then did.
- Brandon SweetYes. And what was the transition like going from Wilfrid Laurier to Waterloo?
- Anne MillarWell, the reason I chose Waterloo was because they were offering the largest stipend as a -- for my being a teaching assistant. So that was kind of a no brainer. I mean, I also heard that, oh, maybe you shouldn't do your master's degree at the same institution that you did your undergrad. You know, you want to expose yourself to different professors and a different sort of campus vibe or whatever. And I was like, oh, all right. We have two universities in town. So why not go to the other one. And the money was important because the year that I graduated in 2000 as an undergrad, a month later -- two months later, I was married. So that would -- I needed to support my young family somehow with -- I had a part time job at the time. And the graduate thing would have -- was also very helpful right off the bat.
- Brandon SweetYes. Oh, wow. So you're a graduate student, and you're just starting married life?
- Anne MillarThat's right. Yeah. Yeah. It was a ton of transitions. Hm?
- Brandon SweetWas that hard to balance? Did you have your children right away, or did you wait?
- Anne MillarWell, actually, yeah. Yes, it was hard to balance, and my grades as a graduate student bore that out. There was -- so that put the brakes on my academic career, let's just say that. Any aspirations I had to continue to get a PhD at least at that -- you know, moving forward and with the momentum was a nonstarter. I think I applied to York because they had a very interesting -- both as a -- it was a graduate -- there was a graduate or master's program as well in sort of media and culture. It was actually a new program at the time. And now the name of it escapes me. It was very exciting and kind of grew out of the work that I was doing in the upper years as an undergrad. And I actually got -- I actually got accepted to that program as a Master's student, but chose not to go because, first of all, you know, I was getting married and had no money.
- And uprooting, you know, uprooting my new wife and going to Toronto was probably not going to be a very stable activity. And then second was that it was York. So we were anticipating -- I figured that there would be, you know, graduate students strike, like the annual strike every year. And as it turned out, there was one during -- it would have been during my tenure. So I attempted to apply to that program again as -- on the PhD side when I was almost done the master's degree, but the grades just -- my grades just weren't there, unfortunately. And so that was, again, another sort of, you know, bitter pill to swallow, but one that I was used to by then, you know, not getting into the undergrad programming of my choice. I was like, well, why not, you know? Lightning does strike twice. And right around that time, I found out that I was going to be a dad. So I was like, oh, all right. So there's actually a picture -- I've got a picture of my -- I'm looking at it right now -- of my convocation as a Master's student holding my degree in one hand and my newborn baby daughter in the other.
- So that's kind of nice.
- Brandon SweetSo a busy -- definitely a busy time.
- Anne MillarYeah, definitely. Yep. And I was in -- my hobbies at the time included DJing and being an on again off again rave promoter. So my attention was divided in many different directions, which probably contributed to the overall aimlessness of what I was doing at the time.
- Brandon SweetIt sounds like you had a lot of different interests, like things that you were passionate about, and you could have taken different paths.
- Anne MillarOh, yeah. Yeah. I think anything could have changed. And, you know, the path not taken has as many disadvantages, I think, as advantages because I wouldn't have -- might not have -- you know, my wife and I, when we were dating, may not have stayed together if I'd gone to Toronto to do my undergrad at the U of T for whatever reason. And, you know, wouldn't have my daughter. And my second daughter came along three years later. So I mean, it all works out, I think. Wherever you go, there you are.
- Brandon SweetYes. Can you talk a bit about the progression of your career? So after you graduated with your MA in 2002, you continued working for Federation of Students, I believe?
- Anne MillarThat's right. So yeah, it was one of those things where, like, my mom used to clip job ads, right, and send them to me when they were still -- when the newspaper was still the number one -- your number one choice. And so when I was doing my Master's, she was like, hey, I saw this thing for something called -- oh, man. I think I have it on my resume, the Researcher Associate something or other. Hold on.
- Brandon SweetThe executive researcher.
- Anne MillarExecutive. Sorry. Oh, man. I can't believe I forgot that.
- Brandon SweetOh, it's a little while ago. You're allowed to --
- Anne MillarWell, yeah. I mean, I do pride myself on my memory, but maybe it's slipping. Yeah. So executive researcher assistant at the Federation of Students. And I was like, Federation of Students. What's that? I remembered when I was an undergrad at Laurier going to Students Council to have a club created. And because the club was related to music, the Student Council was like, hey, why don't you lead us in singing the National Anthem? I was like, well, yeah, okay. Well, it's not that kind of music, but all right. And so me and my buddy who were there petitioning to have this club recognized by the Students Council had to lead them in the singing of the National Anthem, which I thought was very funny. A couple of ravers in fat pants and wooden beads and whatnot. Anyhow. So Federation of Students, I was like, okay. What is this? It's a student organization. I really -- I was not really plugged in as a -- certainly, as a grad student at Waterloo, I was like, well -- I went to the Graduate House one time, I think, for my orientation.
- And then I was pretty much on my own. I didn't -- I wasn't involved in the GSA, the Graduate Student Association or anything like that. But I was like, well, it's a job. And I'm still going to the -- I'm still going to this university. And it's a university job. So why not? So I applied for that and managed to snag it, which was advantageous. So I was off the university payroll for a few months in between my research or my TAship. And then I got back in as a -- in the fall of 2001. So that was good. I felt like I was -- at least on my parents' behalf, I was making money back from the institution that we poured so much money into. So that was kind of fun.
- Anne MillarOh, that's fun. And how did you feel about working for the university? Was that something that had been on your mind that it might be a possibility after graduation?
- Brandon SweetWell, again, yeah. Like, at the time, I wasn't really thinking all that ahead. You know, like, it was kind of like, you know, I was just sort of in the moment, doing whatever. The part time job that I had, that turned into a fulltime job in the summers and then back -- kind of ramped back down to part time. I was working at a software development company in Waterloo. And really, I was on the payroll a lot longer than I should have been. But I tried to make myself useful until I think the controller was looking at what duties I actually had and what they were paying me, and he was like that "I think it's time to go our separate ways." So there was a brief period in the spring of 2001 where I was trying to figure out what I was going to do next. I managed to get a job at the Ontario Lottery and Gaming Corporation. They had this warehouse in Oakville, where all of the slot machines for the various racetrack slots around the province were shipped to, worked on and then shipped back out to various places like Woodbine and that sort of thing.
- So I was working in a warehouse while I was trying to get this job at the university. So I kind of had a couple irons in the fire, took this shipper receiver job at the OLGC, which involved a commute to Hamilton/Oakville every day, which was ridiculous for the amount of money I was getting paid. But it was the only thing I could -- it was the only thing I could get. Right? So I made that commute on the 401 and Highway 7 or 6 or whatever. Did that a lot for the for, like, three weeks. And then I got this Feds job. And it was right around the time that, like, September 11th happened and stuff like that. So it was a very weird time. But no sooner had I started working at the Lottery and Gaming place that I basically had to put in my notice, because I was getting this job at the university. So I mean, it came in handy for a few weeks. I got the paycheck. So yeah. But anyway, so then yeah, so then I was like, okay, well, I'm working at the university.
- And the interesting thing was even though I was technically employed by the Federation of Students, which was a student organization -- it collected its own fees from the undergraduates, that sort of thing -- the full time staff members were actually university employees. We were on the sort of -- there was a payroll thing, and you know, we got paid that way, which is kind of odd when you think about it when the organization is sometimes very adversarial, or there's an adversarial relationship between the university's administration and the student organizations. But as a staff member, I was like, great. You know, I had the benefits. They asked me -- I wasn't quite old enough. I was 24. Was I 24? Yeah. And they were like, well, you don't have to start contributing to your pension plan right away until you turn like 26 or something like that. Or do you want to start now? I was like, yeah, you know what, I'll start now. And I think honestly, that's the best financial decision I've ever made in my life to this date at this point.
- So yeah, so it was great. I mean, in terms of, you know, getting this job and then finding out that I was going to be a dad, I was like, perfect. You know, got benefits now. This was -- this is good. It's a good thing. So yeah, it was interesting to become an employee at the place that I'd been a student after only, like, a year and a half. But yeah.
- Brandon SweetCan you describe the work you did with the Federation of Students? I know you would have been involved, then, in helping students with a number of organizations.
- Anne MillarYeah. There was a lot of -- there was a lot going on with that job. You were sort of a -- you were a resource to the President and -- the Feds President -- and the Vice President Education. They had four -- there were four executives. It was President, Vice President Student Issues, Vice President Administration and Finance and Vice President Education. And the numbers of those execs have changed and the titles have changed over the years. But in my day, it was -- there was four. And I worked closely with basically the President and the Vice President Education. And so there was a little bit of like, you know, policy development or policy research on the higher education policy areas that the student organizations were focused on, which for the most part had to do with, you know, student loans and tuition prices and tuition rates and other stuff like, housing, I think. Well, I didn't do very much of that. So that was one part of it.
- I also served as sort of a resource for the Bylaws, Policies and Procedures Committee, because nothing -- there's nothing student organizations like to do more than create bylaws, policies and procedures and then argue about them and then rescind them and then reinstate them and do all sorts of things. So that was fun. And then the most fun of all, of course, was acting as a resource to the Fed Student Council, which was a body of -- a representative body that has student leaders from faculties, each faculties, and then the affiliated and federated institutions -- we were still calling them the church colleges at that point, I think. But they were represented by population. So the engineers and the art -- the engineering faculty and the arts faculty have the largest number of representatives on council. And so I supported the Speaker, the person who was hired as the Council Speaker.
- And we -- I took minutes at the meetings and arranged for, you know, the room rentals. And, you know, we were in the multipurpose room once a month on Sundays for the council meetings. And some of them would go on for many, many hours. And so I got sort of a bird's eye view into, I guess, the student movement at the time in the -- at the turn of the millennium kind of thing. It was very interesting. A very interesting time, I think. And looking back, kind of -- what's the word I'm looking for? Looking back, it was pretty reserved, although all of that would change in the oncoming -- you know, in the years to come, I guess.
- Brandon SweetOh, interesting. Reserved. That's an interesting way to describe it.
- Anne MillarYeah. The one thing that I've come to sort of -- at least my perspective anyways, the University of Waterloo, is that throughout its history, because of its focus on engineering and STEM disciplines, a lot of the, I guess, you could say the culture war issues of the -- you know, the '60s and the student movement in a broader sense were either muted or otherwise seen as a sideshow at Waterloo, where at other institutions, you know, there were riots. And there were, you know, massive demonstrations and sort of, you know, unruly, you know -- when you think of the '60s or whatever and students, you know, student protests and all that, Waterloo had its share of that sort of thing. But it was never quite as volatile as it was at other institutions. And lately, it seems that the university is now making up for lost time.
- Brandon SweetOh, that's fascinating. It was so young, too. And the student population was quite interesting, right, in those early years. You had some older students and these smalltown students.
- Anne MillarYeah, that's right. Yep.
- Brandon SweetYes. Oh, interesting.
- Anne MillarYeah. I think one of the other things, too, is the international side of the student body, I think, really started taking off in the late '90s and early 2000s. So there was a lot of the changing demographics at the university and a lot of diversity as well. That might have been another area where Waterloo was less or was further behind, I'll say, if behind is the word, than a lot of the other institutions, particularly the ones in Toronto, that would have had these demographic changes a lot earlier.
- Brandon SweetYes. Yes. That's profound in terms of looking at the university's history. Can you talk then about how you entered your role as a communication specialist?
- Anne MillarRight. Okay. So I did five years in the student trenches, the shortest rung of the political ladder, the sandbox of politics. And I will say that a lot of the -- a fair number of the student leaders who did go through the Fed's doors during that time period have gone on to bigger and better things, politically speaking. A lot of them have landed on various student councils -- not student council -- city councils, I'll say, throughout various cities. And they've made their way into the highest echelons of politics in this country as well. So Waterloo did contribute its share of future political leaders of tomorrow. But at the time, I was having to deal with them when they were young and inexperienced and, you know, hadn't really had their roughest edges filed off yet, we'll say. So I kind of got -- I got a sense that as the culture war issues, as I call it, started to rear their head more frequently at Waterloo, I was like, well, I got to get out of here.
- Not out of the university, but I have to get out of the student politics side of it, because the arguments were becoming more fractious. The climate on campus was changing. And there were a couple of really rocky -- oh, the one thing that I forgot to mention -- I thought the student council was the most fun I was ever going to have at Waterloo. I forgot that I was also the chief returning officer for student elections and referenda, which is the most vicious and soul sucking of the student political activities on campus. So I was chief returning officer and for a number of referenda on a number of topics. And there were a couple of really rough ones, especially around the time that my second daughter was born in 2005, where I was like, I need some -- I need to do something else, because it was a real grind.
- And it took me a while to figure out what it is -- what it was that I was going to do. But rather than my mother clipping a job ad, it was my wife who was like, hey, there's this position called Communication Specialist. Maybe you should check that out. And I looked at the job. And it was like writing speeches for the President of the university. I'm like, goodness, gracious. To go from working for the Student President to working for the actual President of the university, who was David Johnston at the time, I was like, huh, that's interesting. And I guess I was like, well, I suppose I have some experience with this. But not much. But I still decided to take a crack at it. And luckily enough, I managed to score that gig as well. So that would have been -- it was the fall of 2006 is when I was interviewing. And it was -- that was a fun time on the university side because there were student protests around the beavers that had been discovered in the creek and the pond at Waterloo on the campus.
- And they had to be taken care of because they were causing -- they were causing dangers to pedestrians. They were gnawing on trees that might fall over and, you know, hurt a student who was walking by. And so they had to -- they trapped them. And unfortunately, they were the kind of traps that kill. And as soon as the students in the Faculty of Environment found out about it, well, there were parade -- there were protest marches. And there were all sorts of agitation and whatnot. So that was kind of the background. We called it Beaver Gate, which was kind of a background to my hiring. And if I had -- if there was any advantage or if I had any -- luck was on my side with this job because the person who was actually hiring for this position was, in fact, my predecessor, actually, my predecessor's predecessor as executive researcher at the Feds. And so I knew her.
- She knew me. And that actually worked out pretty well, although when -- as soon as I was hired -- Avvey Peters is her name. As soon as I was hired, Abby said, oh, by the way, I'm now leaving to join Communitech. And so Avvey worked for the University as their Director of Government Relations. And so originally, the speech writer there, the communication specialist was going to report to the Director of GR. But as Abby was leaving, they decided to park me under the Director of External Communications. Her name was Kelly Tian at the time.
- Brandon SweetAnd did you feel you had her support, like you've come into this new role, and you had probably a lot to learn?
- Anne MillarYeah, it was a baptism by fire. I think my -- part of my interview process was okay, you know, the university is about to launch its 50th anniversary celebrations in 2007. We want you to write a speech for the President, the Chair of the Board of Governors and the Chancellor, who at the time was Mike Lazaridis. We want you to write three speeches for the kickoff event. And so I was like, oh, okay. Can do. And so, you know, I slapped something together. And hilariously enough, I think the Board Chair actually used those notes in his remarks at this kickoff event in January of 2007. So yeah, it was a very strange sort of transitional period, again, for the university because it was celebrating its 50th anniversary. And the President had -- you know, had just been elected to a second -- appointed to a second term.
- And so there was a lot of interesting activity on campus. And then, of course, the beavers, which, you know, may they rest in peace.
- Anne MillarYes. Yes. So, you know, kind of what insights were you're garnering into how a university functions and how it operates? So you've come into this role where you're really working with administrators and people who are leading the university.
- Brandon SweetYeah. Well, now here is where I have to be careful because I'm still gainfully employed by the university at this point in our interview. So yeah, it was -- well, it was eye opening. You know, like, I switched from attending monthly Students Council meetings to attending monthly Senate meetings. And so the Senate is one of the governing bodies of the institution. And they, you know, approve new academic programs and, you know, do a bunch of other stuff. But then I found many unsettling similarities between the Students Council and the University Senate, much to my entertainment. And so I was sitting -- I remember sitting in the back during a lot of these debates. And some of the Senate meetings, some of the meetings would go on a long time. Not quite as long as the Student Council meetings, I'll tell you that. But yeah, it was interesting to see how decisions were made.
- And, you know, like, there was a -- yeah, a lot of interesting ideas and projects, some of which were successful and some of which maybe were not. So there was that. It was really great getting to know David Johnston, who was, I think, at that point, was really one of the, you know, the elder statesman of Canadian universities. Like, he'd spent 15 years at McGill, I think, as their Principal, if memory serves, and then had been Waterloo's President since 1999. And, you know, he was just on the cusp of reaching even -- of achieving even greater things with, you know, his appointment to Governor General. And that was just a few years off at this point. So I always thought it was funny that here I was writing speeches for a guy who'd gone to Harvard and Cambridge and Queens. And I was like, well, all right, I didn't go to any of those schools, but I'll do my best.
- And, you know, he did use some of the words that I wrote, words including "and" and "the". And so, you know, I felt good. It was a great experience sort of being in his office and, you know, watching him work and getting a sense of his relationships with everyone. He was, you know, universally, beloved on campus. And he -- yeah, he was great to great to work with. And around -- sort of around the edges. Like, there were, you know, changes in leadership at the Vice Presidential level. So we had changes, like my boss's boss. No. My boss's boss's boss, we'll say. When I came to Communications and Public Affairs in 2007, there was supposed to be a Vice President of External Relations or University Relations. The job title kept changing. But she had taken a leave of absence. So there was a vacancy there. My boss's boss was Martin van Neirop, who ran the Communications Department.
- He would later end up working as a Director of Government Relations in the same unit. But the Advancement Team and the Communications Team were under the same umbrella at this time. And then I think we brought in a new Vice President, Meg Beckel, at the time, who came from outside of the university, and, you know, had a lot of big ideas and that sort of thing. And so there were some -- changes were afoot in the way the University presented itself to the outside world. You know, at the time we had a lock on, you know, the Maclean's rankings. Like, it was almost a given that we were going to be considered Canada's most innovative university over and over and over again. We just counted on that. But yeah, there was some -- there was some interesting -- yeah, some interesting things going on. I think of the attempt to start a satellite campus in the United Arab Emirates, which was, you know, championed and trumpeted as a major, you know, major departure for the university.
- And, you know, it was going to be a big deal. And it absolutely did not pan out. But it didn't seem to hurt anyone's reputation. So it was fine. It was one of those things that we tried and didn't quite hit the mark. But yeah, so it was a very interesting time.
- Anne MillarAnd so can you talk about your progression there, then? How do you go to become Associate Director of Internal Communications?
- Brandon SweetSure. So around -- yeah, let me think about this. So I had three years basically writing speeches for David Johnston. I think I wrote about 300, which was -- not all of them were -- not all of them were bangers, we'll say. Some of them were just, you know, thank you mister for the money. Let's cut the tape on the -- cut the ribbon on this new building, blah, blah, blah. But a few like, you know, a few keynote addresses and that sort of things, that sort of thing. And he had his pet projects and pet interests and specifically on, like, telecommunications, because that was -- I think he was a communications lawyer or something like that by trade. And he also worked in the knowledge -- one of his projects was the knowledge capital of Canada thing with Waterloo. So he really kind of gave back to the community that he was in at the time trying to raise its profile as the university was having its own profile raised.
- And one of the legacies of that is the Barnraiser Award that The Record hands out every year. That came directly out of the work that was done for the community. But then, surprise, surprise, he gets picked as the Governor General. And that was a huge deal. I remember coming in that morning. There had been -- I mean, there had been some hints that in hindsight, if I had been a little more savvy, I would have been like, oh, geez, we better prepare for this. But we were -- essentially, the communications team was caught flat footed and basically had to write his biography, you know, his epitaph as Waterloo president that morning as he was -- as the announcement came out that he was going to be the next Governor General of Canada. And that was hilarious. So that was fun. So anyways, there were changes within the communications team. A lot of the people that that I'd worked with very closely when I started in 2007 had been at the University since the late '60s and the early '70s.
- And some folks started retiring. And there was sort of a reorganization as Meg Beckel came in. And there was a new hire as the associate vice president, who was my boss's boss. And so there were a lot of changes. And, you know, one of the things that I did was just keep my head down and keep working while a lot of the chaos was happening around me. You know, I figured if I keep my office door closed, you know, maybe the tsunami of change would wash over instead of sweeping me along with it. But in the fall of 2011, there was a change in the editorship of the Daily Bulletin. And I remember my boss coming to my door, saying, "All right, my boss is going to come down here in about two minutes and ask you to -- if you'd like to start editing the Daily Bulletin. You can say no, she said, and kind of like gave me a look.
- And I was like, yeah, I'm probably not going to say no. So yes, I was asked to kind of take over the day-to-day editorship of the Daily Bulletin, while my predecessor, Chris Redmond, worked on some historical projects relating to the university and kind of got onto that pathway towards retirement, which he would end up doing in early 2012. And so, yeah, I was thrown into -- I had written articles for the Daily Bulletin off and on as the communication specialist. And I backed up Chris Redmond when he went on vacation now and again. And actually, the reason that I started going to cover Senate meetings on behalf of -- was on behalf of Chris at the Daily Bulletin. And so I would go and, you know, keep notes. I would basically take my own minutes. They ended up being a transcript. And that was a skill that I had basically learnt on the fly at Students Council was literally writing everything down as people were saying it.
- And somehow, I don't have carpal tunnel syndrome. But anyway, so it seemed like a natural progression was, you know -- and with a new president coming in, Feridun Hamdullahpur, it seemed like a good time to, you know, make a change. And I still supported -- I was still supporting Feridun as his speech writer because that was kind of the job. Like, you're the communication specialist. You're writing for the President, no matter who the President might be. Right? So I started meeting with Feridun. He was the -- he had become the Provost of the university, Vice President Academic and Provost under David Johnston, and then he was the Interim President and became the fulltime President after David left. And so what we started doing was hiring sort of freelance speech writers to kind of take on some of the bigger addresses, the bigger remarks, the speeches and that sort of thing, while I kind of divided my time between the Daily Bulletin and the -- and my own duties as a communication specialist.
- So I was kind of -- I was on a secondment. And then -- oh, no. Actually, it was more of a stipend situation. I actually got -- the job for the speech writer or the communication specialist was a secondment from the Feds, I forgot to mention that, which got extended for another year. And then I became a fulltime communication specialist, which was great, by 2009, I guess. But so in 2010/2011, what we started doing was expanding the internal communications portfolio. So Chris Redmond had been the director of internal communications, which practically meant that he was the editor of the Daily Bulletin and had been doing that since he created the Daily Bulletin in 1993. He had also been the editor of the University's Gazette, which was the print newspaper that had been publishing right up until about 2004. And the Daily Bulletin had grown into its own sort of news producing, you know, channel. And so not only that, but we started taking on the role of mass emails to faculty and staff.
- And that was a -- that is something that basically Human Resources had handled prior with input from the communications team. But it got to a point where HR was like, it doesn't really make sense for the Human Resources team to be creating these communications, seeing as you guys are the Communications Team. The logic was impeccable. So we brought --
- Anne MillarThat's a large portfolio.
- Brandon SweetYeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. So we took that -- I took that on. And immediately, we had to come up with policies for mass email and that sort of thing. But the Daily Bulletin became sort of the focus. And as that went on between, you know, for those few months, they basically posted the internal communications job. It had been reframed as an associate director with an expanded portfolio. And so I applied to that because I was basically doing that job as the communications specialist/interim Daily Bulletin editor. And I moved into that full time in 2012.
- Anne MillarOh, wow. As Associate Director, then, you were also responsible for being the editor of the Daily Bulletin.
- Brandon SweetYeah, that was retained in the job description, as was sort of trying to set the internal communications strategy for the university and doing the mass emails. I haven't looked at that old job description in quite a while. But yeah, there was -- the portfolio was definitely expanded. And so initially, the thought was, well, we could hire a new speech writer, a new communication specialist. Or I think at this point, we might have changed it to manager of internal communications, although it still might have been communications specialists. So that would sit under the internal communications portfolio, so the speech writer. And so we hired a speechwriter in 2012. And so -- and within about -- so that person, Matt Bondy, took over most of the direct interactions with the President, with Feridun.
- And so I was sort of, you know, in a supervisory capacity, but Matt didn't need a lot of supervising. He was quite a talented writer. And he -- the big internal communications sort of intersection with the President stuff became sort of the President's town halls that were happening once or twice a year or once a term. So that was another aspect of it. Running the town halls was another part of the portfolio. And yeah, so that worked. I mean, that worked well for a couple years before, you know, my boss essentially was, like, well, the executive communications side of this has grown to a point where we need to, you know, have that person at an associate director level as well, which was fine. So they moved Matt out from underneath my supervision, and he became a colleague. And so that was about 2014, I guess.
- And so then, you know, it was -- we worked collaboratively to do internal comms and executive comms to, you know, meet the needs of the President, who was establishing his own sort of reputation and his own style and presence on campus. Yeah.
- Anne MillarCan you talk about kind of that work that you were doing with the Daily Bulletin and how you would characterize it, I guess, in that period?
- Brandon SweetSure. So I mean, I worked with Chris Redmond a bit to kind of get a feel for what the Daily Bulletin was supposed to be and that sort of thing. And one of the issues surrounding the Daily Bulletin -- and this was an outgrowth of the Gazette. The Gazette was unique in Canadian university press or publications, I suppose, because it had been given an unusual degree of latitude to discuss all sides of an issue that was relating to, I don't know, university governance or university decision making, projects, things that happened on campus, things that were successful and things that weren't. And so a lot of other institutions kind of looked at Waterloo going, why would you do this? Like, you have a newspaper that basically can act as a platform for those who are opposed to university decision making, I mean.
- So anyhow, that was very interesting. But I think the idea was -- is that transparency was very valuable on the University of Waterloo campus. And Chris would be able to explain it better than I can. But let's just say that under the new, you know, editorial direction of the Daily Bulletin after I took over, that sort of airing of the university's maybe not so clean laundry was no longer going to fly. And so those were decisions that were made at a higher management level. And so I just -- you know, I rolled with it. We were no longer going to be, you know, a strictly investigative journalist body looking into the -- looking into the university's inner workings. And so we had to kind of reset and change direction. And basically, I think some people noticed on campus. Some of the readers noticed. Some of them weren't terribly happy with it, but that was kind of the way the ball bounced, I suppose.
- And so I still tried to, you know, hold the mirror up to the institution in a way that you could see, you know, what your colleagues on campus were doing and, you know, various parts of -- how the various parts of campus fit together, the events that were happening, the things that brought the university together, you know, celebrating the successes of our faculty members, of our students and of our staff, wherever possible. Trying to inject as much sort of -- you know, as much history as I could kind of get into the Daily Bulletin, because by this time, I was -- I would have worked with Ken McLaughlin pretty often on a lot of major, you know, major events and that sort of thing. He always had a book coming out, you know, for various things like the 50th anniversary and the 60th anniversary and you know, all that kind of stuff. So particularly around -- I think it started basically by researching -- like, whenever a retired faculty member or a retired university leader passed away, I would go to our files that we had in our hallway.
- And it was like these big, long, black filing cabinets that were just stuffed to the gills with institutional memory. And we actually -- the Communications and Public Affairs team, the job there -- the title of the unit kept changing. It was CPA when I joined. And then it became Marketing and Strategic Communications. And then it became University Communications. If that gives you any hint as to where things are going. Just there was so much information about this, the people who built this university and particularly, you know, news clippings and photos, black and white photos from the '60s and '70s. It was a treasure trove of information. And so I would go through that and try and piece together the puzzle of this university's history in a way that -- you know, that my predecessor had done it. And so that gave me a real education about this university's -- some of its history, anyways, that hasn't necessarily always been, like, publicized or -- you know, like, Chris Redmond wrote a book, a really good one, in the '90s called Water Under the Bridge.
- That was a very light-hearted, kind of like distanced, almost sardonic take on the university’s history. That became, you know, a reference tool for me every time something happened. I was like, oh, did Chris ever write something about this? And I would flip through. Of course, the book only goes to about 1993, which meant there was a lot that hadn't been written. And so Chris' follow up to that was called Lions and Chevrons. That was the project he was working on before he retired. And it was more of a photographic essay with a lot of notes about various parts of the university's history and stuff like that. So it was quite a tool. And so that notion of institutional memory, I think, became very important to me because that's something that you can still use to connect with the people who are employed at this institution, you know, let them know where they've come from and, you know, how they contribute to the university's future.
- So that was one thing that I was able to -- that I started, anyways to develop, because obviously, I hadn't -- I mean, by this time, I'd been at the university for 15 years or so. So -- well, no. Not quite. Ten years. Twelve years. Yeah. So I was trying to -- I was catching up, you know, catching up on my history.
- Brandon SweetAnd learning about this institution that you're working at?
- Anne MillarYep. Exactly. Exactly.
- Brandon SweetAs a way, it sounds like, to kind of direct where some policy is going to go, to direct what initiatives you're doing and to help focus kind of this -- almost like this institutional spirit or like this -- what the university stood for.
- Anne MillarYeah. Yeah. I think trying to get that right is always important. And I think, you know, a lot of the others -- there's been a lot of change in what the university may or may not be standing for these days. So it can be tough to keep ahead of.
- Brandon SweetYes. I'm curious about this because you talked about how transparency was very valuable. And then this shift. And that coming kind of from the top down. Is that part of the university becoming -- expanding and becoming more modern? Is that something that comes with the growth of an institution? Or do you think it was -- there were other things that were leading to this change?
- Anne MillarWell, I think you've probably hit the nail on the head. When I joined -- when I started working on the administrative side in 2007, like, the university had grown a great deal. Well, the university was catching up, I think, on growth because of the economic issues in the '90s, the reduction in, you know, operating grant funding that never recovered and the recession and that sort of thing. Like, there was a moratorium on building buildings and that sort of thing. And it really only started to pick up in the early 2000s again. So there was a building boom. And after years of the campus kind of remaining static -- like, they renovated buildings. They put additions on them. But there was not this same growth. And then particularly around the double cohort year in 2003/2004, was around there, 2005, when Grade 13, the OAC year, was taken off.
- And there was a greater influx of students. I think maybe that kick started or accelerated some growth that was already building. So the university was growing. Like, physically, the campus, new buildings were coming in. And the faculties were getting larger. And the administrative cohort of employees was growing as well. So I think there was an increased complexity at this institution. And it's still growing. The bureaucracy is still growing. And so, you know, that played a role, I think. And I think -- I mean, and I'm not saying this with any judgment necessarily. But the university had a long -- a lot of continuity, we'll say, in the senior leadership, a lot of folks who, you know, either as professors or as staff members had joined up and had been at this institution for a long time and had really, you know, shaped and been shaped by, I think, Waterloo's particular place and values and that sort of thing.
- But we started bringing in, you know, new blood from other industries and from outside, like, and a lot of expertise, you know, for a growing university. But I think with that comes a change in focus and a more, you know, technocratic, we'll say, view of governance and how the university positions itself both internally and externally. I think reputation management became more of a focus in the last -- well, we'll say the last 15 years. And it's only gone in one direction that way. Right? So because the university markets itself and, you know, is trying to attract both students, the best students, the best faculty, the best staff -- you know, I'll throw a plug in there for my colleagues -- there is that element of, well, we have to get our own house in order, and we have to present an ordered house to the outside world.
- And so having a -- particularly having a news channel that provided fodder for outside media organizations to say, oh, there's a scandal brewing at the university, you know, whether or not that's -- that was a good idea or a bad idea to have that, it was a thing that existed. And so that was something that I think some of the folks at -- in the corner offices in our various buildings felt that needed to needed to be reined in. And at the same time, the parochial nature of this institution, I think, could no longer support its growth. And it was no longer reflective of its complexity. And that's why you have a, you know -- and for years, for years, my -- the team that I was in was less than a dozen people. And this institution was just getting bigger. And the demands for communications support across the university were just growing almost exponentially.
- And so then it would get to a point where, you know, finally, the provost would agree to fund a number of new positions and that sort of thing. But then, you know, we were basically staffing ourselves for one communication revolution behind kind of thing, right, where we would expand, but then the demands kept -- would keep expanding as well. So I think we're still in that mode. And I think across the university, whether you're looking at, you know, the advancement side and the marketing side and the communication side, it's -- there are resources that are being called upon more and more and more. So there has to be more staffing, you know, and more complexity, I think, to reflect the growth of the institution. And I think, really, what -- that all came to a head during the COVID lockdown and the crisis -- and the ongoing crisis from 2020 to now, the long now.
- Brandon SweetYes. And it would be remiss of me to not ask you about COVID and its impact on specifically your work but also your opinions on its impact on the operation of the university more broadly.
- Anne MillarWell, you know, one of the hallmarks of the university, at least in my time, was how decentralized the organization was. And a lot of people view that as a strength. Some would view that as a weakness or an area of threat, because it does lend itself to some -- you know, to some silos. But Waterloo has always been this, you know, this loosely confederated organization of faculties that go in their own direction. Engineering, I'm looking at you. And rightfully so. I mean, that's part of the university's history. Right? Like, you know, the engineering faculty is as old as this institution, where most other -- you know, most of the other faculties -- well, they all did. They all came along later, science and arts and so on and so forth. And they've all got their own identities and their own cultures. And at the time, the decentralization, you know, just seemed to work. Right? As long as the communicators in the various faculties and administrative units, you know, would share information with each other and stuff like that, they could kind of go on and do their own thing.
- And we did have a university newspaper that kind of kept the community together. The students had -- you know, students had Imprint and that sort of thing as well. Like, there was still a -- there was a culture on campus. But, you know, the pandemic really brought, I think, into focus that a lot of people felt that we needed a lot of centralized communications activity and central direction, we'll say, as opposed to control. But so it was a -- you know, it was a boom time if you were interested in being able to grow your influence as a central communicator on campus, because it was seen as needed. And because we were basically in emergency communications mode from March of 2020 to -- I mean, it only sort of subsided -- like, in terms of the emergency, it only subsided this summer in 2022.
- You know, we were really kind of back to "normal," and I'll put air quotes around that. But we wound down a lot of the emergency communications protocols that have been put into place, the campus check-in tool that we were using to make sure that people had -- you know, that they had submitted their information about their vaccination status and the vaccine mandate and, you know, whether you were sick or not, you know, that sort of thing. But it really -- because there were these, you know, these groupings of decision makers that started to coalesce around the President's Office. And the communications team became a part of that decision making structure, not at my level, necessarily, but at a level one to two, you know, places higher than me. The demands on -- again, the demands on the communications team grew. And they needed communication support.
- And, you know, a lot of the times, there was a feeling that the communicators were basically standing in the gap of decision making and in between decisions that were being made. A lot of my colleagues were on the frontlines, you know. And again, that was a bit of a grind. It was a major grind, we'll say. And it was a tough go for several months there, for sure.
- Anne MillarOh, wow. And so now you said it's kind of calmed down a bit. But do you think that's given across the campus kind of more appreciation for what the communications team does and its importance?
- Brandon SweetWell, yeah, I think so. I mean, everybody -- you know, everybody wants to do their part. But they have to have information. And if we don't know what the key messages are, if we don't know what the direction that the university is taking, we can't advise any of our colleagues as to what -- you know, what they should be saying to the people who are coming up to them with questions. And we instituted a -- you know, a COVID-19 information email account. And I was bombarded relentlessly by people with questions, people from within and without the university community, inside and outside. And so someone has to have the answers. Right? Like, that's kind of what we've discovered, right? And so we had to create these channels of, you know, here's the decision. Here's what we can communicate about it. Here are the key messages, that sort of thing. And it was really -- like, the university had weathered individual crises before. And we had an emergency -- we have emergency communications plans for short-term crisis events, right?
- Whether it's related to weather or, you know -- there are a whole lot of theoreticals. And actually did have a pandemic plan that was gathering dust on our shelf in the hallway. This is years before COVID. The pandemic plan would have come out after SARS. So that gives you a sense of how long ago that was, in, you know, 2003-ish. So we had these pandemic binders and, you know, never opened them, I guess. And then COVID came along and threw us all for a loop, right? So --
- Brandon SweetGrab the binder.
- Anne MillarGrab the binder. And then we had to -- you know, I will give credit where credit is due. My colleagues had, especially in media relations and issues management, had been at the forefront of trying to update these pandemic and emergency communications plans. And luckily, they -- we had an updated version of this just before, you know, the pandemic really took off. So we were kind of lucky that way. We had also -- I might be misremembering this, even though it happened in 2019. We also had -- we had an external review going on about our emergency comms plan just prior to and in the initial stages of the pandemic, which was really hilarious. The timing couldn't have been better or worse, depending on your perspective. But yeah, it was -- so yeah, so I think the result of the pandemic is in a more unified and centralized communications structure at the university.
- And a lot of the outgrowths of the pandemic, a lot of the issues -- well, technologically speaking, everyone became extremely conversant in Microsoft Teams and Zoom, which we're currently using as a recording platform now for this conversation. And that was a huge -- like, a huge acceleration of a trend that would have taken a lot longer. Like, we had started using Microsoft Teams just as a document sharing tool, I mean, just before the pandemic. Like, we’d been using SharePoint. And there was some predecessors like when we had the NDrive and that sort of thing, like the shared FTP sites and stuff like that. But we did do -- we did do some collaborative stuff. But boy did that ever take off. And the fact that there was a teleconferencing component to Teams. It's like they almost planned it. You know, like, if I can put on my tinfoil hat for a second.
- So these tools -- and we also, you know, instituted daily communications calls with colleagues across campus, which persists to this day. There was also a greater use of mass -- not mass email, but like a group email for the communications colleagues across campus. Like, we really -- that was another group that sort of predated the pandemic. But the tools or the channels that we had in place to communicate to our colleagues across campus became very much more used and more important as a clearinghouse for information, key messaging and the latest news about the pandemic, because we had these ad hoc decision-making bodies that were created at a high level, kind of sidestepping the Senate, the University Senate, I might add. But that's another discussion, I'm sure, that someone else will probably be better equipped to talk about. And so these groups had to work very -- they worked very closely with the communications team and the Vice President University Relations to, again, get the word out.
- And having to decide what the words were -- I think there was a certain degree of policy influence that was happening at a very high level, helping to guide the senior leadership to make -- you know, make decisions and provide scholarly -- non-scholarly, you know, advice, we'll say, and that sort of thing. So yeah, it was definitely an interesting time. If you were a high-level communications person at the university, this was an incredible learning experience.
- Anne MillarYes. So I'd love to talk a bit about the Beyond the Bulletin podcast that you launched and still cohost, because I think it's also important to COVID. And of course, you would have used that platform to really communicate across the campus about a number of COVID-related policies or decisions. But can you talk a little bit about, you know, what led you to establish the podcast and its history?
- Brandon SweetRight. Well, okay, this is -- yeah, it's a funny story. So in November of 2018, my boss tapped me on the shoulder to give a presentation to our communications colleagues. We call it the C4 group. I forget what the four C's stand for. But they wanted me to -- he wanted me to give a presentation on the university's storm closing communications procedure, which, again, is sort of in my area of -- a part of my job is to maintain this procedure and ensure that the communications lines are open when -- you know, when there's a snowfall and that sort of thing. I could do a whole -- maybe we could discuss the history of the university in closing for -- or not closing -- during bad weather. But anyhow, so I gave this presentation. And I guess it was extremely well received because my boss was sitting in the audience and he stood up afterwards and said, you know, you really should do a podcast. You're a good speaker. And I was like, oh, okay. It turns out that wasn't just a friendly suggestion.
- It was -- it became one of my jobs was to establish this podcast. So that was -- that started in very late early -- late 2018, early 2019. And so that [inaudible] would go away. And it took us a while to -- you know, to develop it, I suppose, and come up with it. There were some personnel changes going on. I had just hired a manager of internal and leadership communications. And we'd been working together. And so the podcast kind of became our -- a project that we were both working on. But she went on parental leave. And so my boss was like, well, we should continue to get this project off the ground because the -- you know, the Vice President of University Relations was interested in it now. And so we had to produce something.
- So I -- you know, the next logical person was my colleague from media relations, Pamela Smyth, who kind of picked up the ball. And so we worked together on -- we collaborated and came up with a -- with the idea of, you know, interviewing people on campus, who had been doing interesting things as well as providing an update on some of the top stories, you know, in the -- of the Daily Bulletin from the previous week. And so this was all -- this is -- actually, it was an outgrowth of what I worked with with the manager of internal leadership communications Anne Galang. We did a prototype episode that Nick listened. Nick Manning is my boss, Associate Vice President Communications. And then we kind of redid it after Anne went on leave. We redid it. We had so many episode zeros, we called them.
- We did one with Pamela Smyth. And then that kind of got the ball rolling. And so, you know, the interview element of it, I think, is very important. And that's kind of where, you know, Pamela brings her background as a journalist to play. She's a great interviewer and is a -- you know, does, you know, great conversations with, you know, faculty, staff and students on campus. And so, you know, we established that we'll look back at the top stories in the Daily Bulletin. We'll try and give a glimpse of what's coming up in the week ahead or so and then a topical or maybe not topical interview with a notable person or personality on campus. So yes, that became another channel for pandemic related stuff. Of course, it was always out of date, right, because we record on Wednesday and publish on a Friday. Things were changing --
- Brandon SweetSo fast. Yes, so fast. So what was it like building something like that from kind of the ground up and getting to really have input into the direction the podcast would take and what you would focus on?
- Anne MillarWell, I mean, it was -- we were kind of given a bit of a free hand to come up with an idea and a concept that would work and then we could run it past my boss and then, you know, regroup and try again, until we got it right. So it was all right. It was a lot of fun. We used to -- pre-pandemic, we recorded in the basement of the building that we moved to back in 2016, East Campus 5, which was a former BlackBerry building. And they had some soundproofed radio testing modules in the basement. One of those -- I forget. It was like a soundproof chamber with the foam. It was one of those things where if you, like, went inside and closed the door, you would end up hearing your own heartbeat, and it would drive you mad. So they had some interesting stuff in the basement that we kind of -- well, not we, the ITMS team – that is the Media Team for IST had taken that over because it was -- it became a recording studio for faculties to do lectures and recording, you know, for Distance Ed and that sort of thing.
- It became a recording studio, and it also had the -- what we call the double under studio, the television studio. You know, when a talking head is on a news broadcast, that was where they would get filmed in the basement there. And so we used to record, you know, sitting right next to each other, which in pre-pandemic times was normal. But as soon as the pandemic hit, well, we started recording remotely using various -- I think we were using a program called Squad Casts. So that has worked out pretty well. There's always going to be technical glitches and that sort of thing. And so yeah -- and so it takes -- a lot of effort goes into the editing and the writing and the recording and the interviewing. Like, it's a big project.
- Anne MillarThat seems to be it could be a fulltime job in itself.
- Brandon SweetYeah. Well, I've discovered, editing the Daily Bulletin is a fulltime job, to say nothing of all of the extra things that have been bolted onto the portfolio over the years. So yeah, it's a big task and an enjoyable one. I think we're getting -- we're having a lot of fun with it, the podcast.
- Anne MillarI was going to say, what have you enjoyed most? You talk to so many different people. Is it learning about the university? What do you love most about it?
- Brandon SweetYeah, I think I -- you know, the -- sometimes the banter is the fun part. But obviously, you know, giving a platform to folks who've been doing good work on campus is -- it's pretty rewarding. And yeah, just having fun with the cohosts is -- you know, that's reason enough for me to do it.
- Anne MillarWorking as a team, getting to --
- Brandon SweetYes, exactly.
- Anne MillarYes. That's amazing. Do you have any advice for someone who might be interested in starting a campus-based podcast or a university-based podcast?
- Brandon SweetYeah, my advice is don't. We don't need the competition. No, I'm just kidding.
- Anne MillarSo not specifically, I guess, at Waterloo, but at another university. How important do you think that is?
- Brandon SweetWell, I mean, yeah, I think you have to be aware of the -- all of the backend stuff that takes the large amount of time. Like, even for two people, there is a lot of work that goes into editing and in the promotion side of it, as well. And it's a bigger undertaking than just sitting down at a microphone and yakking for 20 minutes, like, that's, like, very, very -- a very small part of the -- it's the end result, right? But there's so much that goes into it that, you know, it should be a team effort. And there will be -- it does take, you know, resources. So in order to do it well, I think you have to be ready to put the effort and money into it really, you know, for equipment and software and so on and so forth.
- Like, it's a big -- that's a big part of it.
- Brandon SweetYes. So that, it kind of…
- Anne MillarSorry. So I mean -- but it is. It is. If you're naturally inclined to go -- going back to enjoying the sound of your own voice, then it's a good -- it's a fun thing to get into, I think.
- Brandon SweetIf you're a talker.
- Anne MillarIf you're a talker.
- Brandon SweetYes. So you alluded kind of to the things you might need, but in the work that you do, what would help support or improve what you're able to do? So whether that's the Daily Bulletin, beyond the Bulletin, university communications, what would help you in the various roles that you currently have?
- Anne MillarWell, I mean, you know, the easy answer, of course, is more resources both in terms of personnel and, you know, time, I suppose, although time is fleeting. Yeah, I mean, it's -- there are elements of the internal communications, I think, the portfolio that would be better served if the team was located in the heart of campus as we used to be back in the day when we were on the third floor of Needle's Hall. And then in 2016, we were moved out to the University's east campus because what they were doing was centralizing a lot of student-facing departments into Needle's Hall and making a sort of a one-stop shop for student-facing academic support units. But also, there was a lot of growth in some of the executive portfolios as well. So more space was needed.
- We did a whole addition onto the side of Needle's Hall to create a new board and Senate chamber, among other things, the accessibility services and other things on the lower floors of that building. But, you know, a lot of the space was then filled in by office space for, you know, the expansion in the Provost Office and the Associate Vice President Academic and Vice President Advancement and a lot of that. So yeah, being off campus -- I mean, it doesn't matter so much in this digital age when you can kind of just, you know, pick things up. But you really can't. We didn't get the -- you know, the student newspaper didn't get delivered out at our end of campus for a while. And things have changed, too, with the LRT and stuff like that. And there are a lot more people on this end of campus now. But it doesn't -- it still doesn't feel like -- doesn't feel like the University of Waterloo being on the corner of Columbia and Philip. But thems the breaks, right? So yeah, but I think -- I mean, you could always do -- you can always do more with more people as well.
- Right? So that's the other element of it. An increased -- you know, an increased internal communications team could, you know, go out and find more of the interesting stories that that are happening on campus and the interesting ideas that are under discussion and being able to cover major university events on campus and in the surrounding community and stuff like that. But I mean, there's a big team in the communications on the university communications side. So a lot of that gets covered off by the integrated communications team that works on the university's homepage, Waterloo News, that sort of thing. And if we've -- you know, if we've really developed that -- the communications pipeline with our colleagues across campus, the other communicators, that'll go a long way towards -- it goes a long way towards filling in the gaps that you might not get by not being on campus and not seeing, you know, what students are doing in the Great Hall, the Student Life Centre every day and not being where the faculties are doing things in their various buildings and stuff like that.
- But I mean, we've done okay these last six years, I'll say.
- Anne MillarYes. Oh, good. I'd love to talk a little bit just about your thoughts on the university. And you've said a number of things. But more specifically, how you would describe campus culture, because much of what you do is important to the campus culture and to fostering kind of a cohesive university identity. So how would you describe the campus culture? You talked about it kind of having been a bit more siloed or fractured, that there's these individual cultures and how that's changed a little bit in the past few years in particular. But how would you describe the University of Waterloo?
- Brandon SweetOh, that's a tall order. I mean -- my dog is having a dream. Okay. Yeah, it's hard to say. Like, I think the university's -- the fact that so many students are doing cooperative education is always going to mean that there is a very transitory student experience on campus. And I'm not sure how that gets resolved. And I'm not sure whether it's changed all that much over the -- especially in recent years, but you're always going to have students coming and going, and not necessarily having that four-year stretch on campus where you're on campus all the time like other institutions that aren't as fully co-op as Waterloo is. So it can be -- I mean, that can be tricky. That's another one of the reasons I would say that the -- what I would go back to the culture war issues, the one of the current day.
- That's why it took so long for those issues to come up on the University's campus because the students didn't have time to really to sit around and commiserate on these issues because they were always rotating out to their co-op terms and stuff like that. Not in every faculty, of course. But anyways, like, so I think that there's that element of it. And that plays into, I think, the -- well, it definitely makes it a challenge to create a cohesive identity, at least in my experience. And the degree to which student communication and student issues are part of the internal communications portfolio has ebbed and flowed and changed over the years. So, you know, there are a lot of student facing communicators on campus who may have a different -- a very different view than I do.
- And that's fine. But I'm not directly engaged in in trying to develop the student experience. I've got my hands full with the -- you know, the employee side. So yeah, like, there's -- yeah, I don't know. It's tough because a lot of the units like your -- you know, as a staff member, I think a lot of people, depending on where they are on campus, they may identify with their unit first as opposed to some sort of cohesive Waterloo staff spirit. But I might be off based on that. So take that with a grain of salt. But I'm thinking of large -- like, the largest employer groupings on campus. You've got, you know, Plant Operations. You've got the library, for example. And I think there's a degree of internal cohesion for a lot of these -- a lot of these academic support units.
- But how that translates -- you know, I -- maybe the way I look at it is the university is kind of a quilt, you know, the squares. And each square is something. But, you know, take it together, it's a -- you know, it's a blanket or whatever. But there's individual parts, I guess. So coming up with a cohesive identity, I think, is always going to be an issue in an area where the campus is very large and still decentralized to a great degree. And, you know, we've got our units that do very different things, and they're designed that way. And a lot of them are geographically split up or, you know, occupying different spaces. When I think back to, you know, IST being in the basement of the math and computer building versus now they're out on the east campus as well, you know, as well as we are kind of thing. So, you know, you move around, and the campus vibe is different in various places.
- But there are more and more students on campus. And a lot of the -- what I'm thinking of -- whenever I walk through the Davis Centre, there's, you know, a massive crutch of students lined up for Tim Hortons. Ditto with the Student Life Centre. But the Davis Centre has a lot of students passing through it. Student Life -- the Student Life Centre just had a big expansion with the athletics, the physical activities complex and stuff like that. So it's grown to match, I think, the increasing number of students. But you're still, you know, faculty first. You've got all the faculties with very strong identities and very strong, you know, the different mascots and stories and lore that they've all got, the different colours, the colour coding that came in during my earlier days. That was all codified. And there's some fun -- there's some fun stuff that happened around university identity.
- We had some interesting misfires, we'll say. But I think it's gotten better.
- Brandon SweetCan you tell any of those misfire stories?
- Anne MillarWell, the infamous laser logo incident of, I want to say, 2008, 2009, maybe. It was an attempt to unify the brand identity of the university in a way that incorporated all of the faculty colours. And it was kind of a theme. You know, there were these colour -- now we've got like the -- there were some elements of that that have lasted to this day. But there was a potential -- we'll say a potential logo. It was never actually officially launched that was the W, was a W using the new font that we were all, you know, supposed to use in our -- as part of the University's word mark and the brand identity. And it had these arcs of colour shot through it. And, you know, pink for math and purple for, you know, engineering, stuff like that.
- And the overall effect was a laser light show. And I think this leaked out onto social media, which was just taking off at the time. And to say that there was some blowback is an understatement. And so it was back to the drawing board, although we persisted in saying that we insisted that it was never meant to be a final, final logo. But everything on the internet is forever. So the moment that it leaked out and became an image that you could find online -- we still find people using it to this day, not just in a mocking way, but actually using it on their letterheads or their posters. I saw a poster a few years ago posted up at a frozen yogourt place. I was like, oh, my gosh, they're using that logo. Yikes. Because if you do a Google search for the University of Waterloo logo, like, until we actually -- I think we contacted Google and begged them to delist this image from search results.
- I think we had to take it off of -- we had to take it off of any site where it had even been mentioned in passing as a news item, not used in any official context. But there was always an image there. We kind of fed into it because honestly, it was hilarious. And it was the fact that there it became such a -- it was an early, I'll say, an internet meme, I guess, for Waterloo. It was Waterloo's sort of first day big moment on the internet in terms of gaining -- what's the opposite of acclaim? I don't know. Anyways, it was a funny -- it was just one of those funny quirks, right? Like, you never expect to get that kind of reaction from people. But that was -- that just -- you know, just, people had a kind of visceral reaction to this logo. So it was the Beaver Gate of its day.
- Brandon SweetAnd I know we're almost out of time, but I would really love to get your thoughts on the University of Waterloo's centennial. So the institution will be 100 in 2057. There's lots of talk right now about what the university should aspire to become, what it should focus on. And I'd love to know what your thoughts are, what you think the vision for Waterloo at 100 should be.
- Anne MillarWow. Well, up to this point, I've avoided getting involved in the Waterloo at 100 consultations that have been going on. Yeah. It's an interesting question.
- Brandon SweetGoing back, I guess, to something that you said before, how can the university's values be made more cohesive? Or how can they be communicated? And which values do you think should be continued to be communicated as Waterloo nears 100? Or what should be prioritized? There's different, like, ways to come at the question.
- Anne MillarYeah, that's true, actually. I mean, the -- it is very difficult or will be very difficult for Waterloo to retain its distinctiveness. And here, I'm thinking of, you know, its general commitment to innovation. And particularly, you know, the differentiators, like we talked about, entrepreneurship and that sort of thing. As the University of Waterloo moves into lockstep with pretty much every other institution in Canada, it's going to be very difficult to maintain a distinct identity. And it's hard to -- I mean, it's -- you know, it's hard to explain how that might play out, I guess.
- But I don't know, the university has to have some courage, I think, and courage to stand by its convictions, the convictions that I think are, you know, listed in its motto, you know, in harmony with truth. I'm not going to attempt the Latin because I didn't take Latin in high school. But the issues of academic freedom and this -- the mission of the university to search for truth is -- I mean, there are certain threats to that, I think, that come with the general spirit of this age that we're living in. And I don't know, because there may need to be courage to stand against -- to go against some of the grain. And I think the key problem is that if we are so focussed on reputation management and are so, I guess, reactive is one word for it, if we are so reactive to the -- you know, particularly on, you know, social media and the loudest voices, we'll say, which don't necessarily always equate to, you know, a majority in a democratic, you know, a democratic society -- if we are constantly reacting to threats, it's going to be very hard to maintain any sort of, you know, sense of, you know, distinctiveness, I think, because we're just parroting the same answers that everybody else is.
- And it -- I think that -- you know, I don't want to say the university needs to go back to its roots or anything like that. But we do have a history of being, you know, pragmatic but also, you know, not shying away from difficult conversations, but allowing, that -- the difficult conversations to play out as opposed to just deciding what truth is going to be, I suppose, because there may end up being a clash between the truth that the university accepts and the truth that its faculty members are attempting to uncover. Right? And it can go either way. But I think there's -- because academic freedom is now not quite as free, I think, perhaps as it used to be. And so we're right back to where we started with, you know, being transparent and discussions about what -- you know, what is -- what are the truths that we're trying to be in harmony with?
- And I think a lot of institutions have to grapple with that. But it seems to me that the answers that are coming up are -- they seem to be so much the same across the board. It's like, where is this -- who's -- you know, not just getting ahead of these issues. But who's finding out something new, you know? Or who's getting to the core of a lot of these topics? And I don't know. I think as long as we can have conversations, I think, you know, the closer we'll get to that university's underlying value of being in harmony with truth.
- Anne MillarYes. Oh, I like that. Thank you so much. Brandon, I know we're out of time. But I'd love to hear your thoughts on this project. How important you believe that stories such as yours are told, they're recorded and preserved for the community today and for future generations?
- Brandon SweetYeah. I mean, you know, I've only been here 22 years. And there are folks who've been here longer. And I think it is very important that we -- that we get these stories down and get people's thoughts and perspectives and their experiences, because the university has grown in size. And, you know, there are people who toil here in anonymity, but who've got interesting stories to tell, you know, and interesting experiences. And I mean, that's what makes Waterloo Waterloo. If we can find -- you know, if we can get those -- these people to talk about their experiences, I mean, it just becomes part of that institutional memory that I have found so valuable. And I say that as someone who's gone back and listened to some recordings made by folks who were here in the university's very early days. And I found those to be incredibly valuable from, you know, a continuity perspective, an institutional history perspective.
- And so I think this project is great in that, you know, it'll hopefully capture some stories that haven't been told and new perspectives that are very valuable. And I think that, you know, if we -- the more diverse the voices, the more complete picture that you'll get of this institution's history and the way -- where it's going in the future.
- Brandon SweetThank you.
- Anne MillarYeah. Well, if it's possible, I think that talking to my predecessor, Chris Redmond, who cast a very long shadow at this university as an institutional communicator and has been around the block -- had been around the block so many times. He would be an incredible resource. Being a retiree, I think he could speak a lot more freely and has very valuable perspectives on some of the stuff that I might have touched on in the interview. But I mean, he was the editor of The Gazette and the founder of the Daily Bulletin. And from an internal communications and institutional communications history, he is a resource that is probably unrivaled, as he came in in the very early '70s and was here right through to 2012. And so I think he would be a great get for this oral history project, if he was amenable to it.
- But also, I think Martin van Nierop was another name. He was the Director of CPA, only because -- well, he was director through, I think, a really pivotal time in the late '80s and through the '90s, when this university really did start growing up as an institution. And I mean, there's a lot of -- you know, we could discuss a lot more about the history of the various presidents and whatnot that were -- you know, I'm working right now on a project for the celebration of life for Jim Downey, who was President from '93 to '99, during a very tumultuous time for the university. And we just did something similar for Doug Wright, who had passed away in 2020. And we did a big university event for him. But I think Martin was there during that same timeframe when there were a number of events on campus that really necessitated -- like, the university really had to develop procedures and build infrastructure on campus to deal with big issues.
- There was a -- you know, there was a killing on campus in 1993. And that incident sparked one of the first times in the university's history where, you know, the Federation of Students and the President of the university and the head of the communications team all got into the same room together. Like, it really took to -- and, you know, the Director -- the Associate Provost of Student Experience and all that kind of stuff, had to get together to talk about how to deal with this incident on campus. And I think that set the tone for the next almost 30 years. And when I say the university had to grow up, I think, you know, Martin and Chris might both agree that that was a turning point in '93. So he'd be a great -- he would have a great perspective on that as well. And the only other -- well, from the communications team, John Morris is another name that comes to mind.
- He's been around for ages and ages and ages or had been around at the same time and wrote press releases after press release after press release, worked on The Gazette, you know, that sort of thing. And so these guys are real resources for the communications side. And so these are the guys that I met when I started working. Unfortunately, some other great voices like Patricia Bowe, she passed away a few years ago. She would have been a great person to interview. But those are the three names that come to mind. And if I -- you know, if I come up with any more, I'll let you know.
- Anne MillarThank you so, so much.