Interview with Judi Jewinski

  • Anne Millar
    Good afternoon, Judi.
  • Thank you so very much for meeting with me today.
  • Judy Jewinski
    Oh, thanks for inviting me.
  • I'm really thrilled.
  • Anne Millar
    We're very excited to talk to you.
  • I'd love to begin just with your family background.
  • So where did you grow up?
  • Where were you born?
  • Judy Jewinski
    So I was born in Toronto, which is really kind of funny
  • because so few people are, it seems.
  • But my parents were both professors at Queen’s University.
  • So I grew up in Kingston, and because they were both profs, I ended up skipping a couple
  • of years of school which put me at a social disadvantage.
  • Because, for example, I was eight years old in Grade 5, which is when I look
  • at my eight-year-old grandson, I think oh, no way.
  • Anne Millar
    Oh, wow.
  • Judy Jewinski
    So to catch up the time, my mother took me to Europe for three years when I was a kid,
  • because she was a Francophone and she wanted me to speak French.
  • So we went to Switzerland, which was where her family had come from,
  • and we lived in Neuchâtel for the while we were there.
  • And I went to school with little Swiss kids who spoke French.
  • And I don't know if you know when people are trying to keep a first language in a context
  • where nobody speaks that first language.
  • It's really tough.
  • And I would, in Kingston, never respond to my mother in French.
  • Ever. Because it was people oh, gee, where do they come from?
  • Even though French is a perfectly reasonable language to speak, nobody in Kingston did.
  • So when I was in Switzerland, the opposite took place.
  • Nobody spoke English at all.
  • And I just became a little Swiss kid without realizing it.
  • However, the English teacher in Grade 9 knew that I was an Anglophone.
  • And one day, she said oh Judi come up to the front of the class, and please explain
  • to your little les camarades how we use relative pronouns in English.
  • And I said, but, madam, we don't have any.
  • And the horror on her face made me realize oh, I really, I really blew it didn't I?
  • So I swore to myself I would never be humiliated like that again.
  • And I read up on relative pronouns, and was surprised to find that, yes indeed, we had them.
  • I decided to go to the University of Waterloo
  • because I had an absolutely fantastic English teacher in Grade 13 who was a graduate,
  • and Waterloo was a very young university at the time.
  • And it was a good four hours' drive from Kingston, just the right distance
  • for getting away from home, but being able to get back home if you wanted.
  • Anne Millar
  • Judy Jewinski
    So I decided oh I should investigate this university.
  • And the other wonderful thing was that there was a drama professor whose name was Maurice Evans.
  • Now this is '69 when Planet of the Apes had come out.
  • and Maurice Evans had starred in Planet of the Apes.
  • So I thought, isn't that incredible?
  • I could be taught by this fabulous movie star.
  • It wasn't the same Maurice Evans.
  • But that was okay.
  • When I got to Waterloo the first time -- I'd never been further west than Toronto ever --
  • and Dick Knight who is a long time Waterloo person showed me around,
  • and was utterly charming, and made me feel that Waterloo was the only place for me.
  • Anne Millar
  • Judy Jewinski
    So I put it first choice of six.
  • I had six choices of universities.
  • And I got offered a spot and I came here in 1970,
  • in September, which is a good 52 years ago.
  • Anne Millar
    Oh, wow.
  • I'd love to go back to your parents that you said they were professors.
  • In what fields?
  • Judy Jewinski
    So my father was a professor of biochemistry.
  • He worked, he was one of the original team working on DNA back in the 50s.
  • That's pretty exciting.
  • My mother was a French teacher, so she taught French grammar,
  • and she taught French literature.
  • And when I was five -- in those days, you had an awful lot of stay-at-home moms.
  • You didn't have a lot of mothers who had jobs.
  • Anne Millar
    Advanced degrees and jobs.
  • Judy Jewinski
    Especially, right, advanced degrees and positions at universities.
  • She taught summer school, and she had me sitting in class at the very back doing math questions
  • for however long the class lasted, I'm guessing, an hour and a half or whatever.
  • But I'm sure that having had that experience, I had a sense of how to teach --
  • my mother was a really fine, fine instructor.
  • Anne Millar
    What an inspiring role model as well.
  • Judy Jewinski
    She really was.
  • She was 40 years older than I was, which was so entirely unusual for the time, especially,
  • all of my other friends' mothers were in their twenties, I think.
  • So my mother, really, she was more like a grandmother
  • in that sense with the difference of age.
  • But she was totally wonderful.
  • She was amazing.
  • And she made me comfortable being -- I never really thought much about the disparity
  • between men and women because my mother was very not controlling at all.
  • She was, but she was very self-assured.
  • Anne Millar
    Did you have any siblings growing up?
  • Judy Jewinski
    No I was, no, I was sort of the lucky only child.
  • Anne Millar
    Yes. Did you feel a pressure to excel academically very young
  • or was that the world you grew up in and very natural?
  • Judy Jewinski
    Well, unfortunately it was the world I grew up in.
  • I went to, I was in Grade 1 at the age of five.
  • And Grade 3 at the age of six, because of all the things that I'd been able to do at home
  • that people weren't doing yet in school.
  • And, mathematically, I really love math.
  • My dad was very disappointed, by the way, that I didn't go into maths and sciences.
  • But I worked with him in biochemistry for a march break when I was in grade 12 maybe.
  • And he was working on diabetes research, and they had to kill sheep.
  • But the way they killed the sheep, of course, was you know drugs, right,
  • it had to be hit on the head with a chisel.
  • And that I decided I think something else is more interesting.
  • I was really into drama.
  • My parents had -- in Kingston, the Domino Theatre is an extraordinary theatre,
  • little theatre, so I was involved in that and I was in a couple of plays.
  • When I went to -- My parents put me in boarding school for Grades 12
  • and 13 because I was a teenager, and they were in their 60s,
  • and it was very, very hard on them.
  • But I loved boarding school.
  • I just flourished and did drama.
  • I was in a verse speaking contest at the St. Lawrence Centre when I was in Grade 13,
  • and came home with a signed copy of Raymond Souster poems.
  • So that peaked my interest in poetry.
  • And, of course, all teenagers write poetry, don't they?
  • I thought I was a brilliant poet [laughing].
  • Anne Millar
    And then you look back and think.
  • Judy Jewinski
    And then I look back at those poems, and I think oh, some of them aren't bad.
  • But my husband is a poet, and his poems are, yeah.
  • Anne Millar
    Are beautiful?
  • Judy Jewinski
  • Anne Millar
    Oh, that's amazing.
  • Well, that brings us, so I'd love to know -- you said you had this drama teacher in high school
  • that was influential and encouraged you.
  • Did that lead you into English, or why did you choose English?
  • So, English, because it was an English teacher who also did drama.
  • and who also wrote poetry.
  • She was an amazing woman, and I have always hoped to find her again,
  • but I think she got married and name changes and all of that.
  • But she was amazingly encouraging.
  • And because it was a boarding school, we had a very small English class.
  • So we did unusual out of the way kinds of studies.
  • We read Heart of Darkness in Grade 12 where you read it in second
  • and third year perhaps at university.
  • So I was really, really well prepared to go into English.
  • But first year first year Arts at Waterloo still, and I still love this way of spreading
  • of having students take English or something like English.
  • But having a whole variety of courses that are available to them,
  • so that they can decide once they get to university if they really want to be in whatever.
  • I took one English course with Grace Logan who became the Director of Arts Computing
  • until she retired a number of years ago.
  • She was an amazing teacher -- 8:30.
  • Monday, Wednesday, Friday.
  • So often on Fridays, it was really really hard to get to class but she did English 101
  • which was the canon from Beowulf all the way up to the present day.
  • And it was great.
  • And we finished with modern poetry.
  • And so poetry was always something I really liked.
  • Judy Jewinski
    But in my second year, I took a grammar course because there was one,
  • it was called The Use and Abuse of English, and it was offered
  • at the second year level to -- it was English 240.
  • So I couldn't have taken it in first year, but I found my I found my niche.
  • It was absolutely 'the' course for me, and I realized 'that' is what I want to do.
  • I want to analyse sentences, I want to understand how everything is put together.
  • And a course like that taught me how to do that.
  • That was at Renison College, and that was 1971 and the professor's name was Harry Tuyn.
  • T-U-Y-N. He was of Dutch origin but he had taught in England,
  • and he had a fabulous British accent, and he had a fabulous British sense of humour too.
  • He was a friend of a famous actor, and I can't remember his name.
  • But he was just a smart man and his wife was in class with us,
  • which was quite funny but she adored him.
  • She sat next to me, and she invited me for dinner one night,
  • which was how wonderful being invited to the home of a professor.
  • I got to the front door of the house, I had taken a taxi,
  • because I lived in the villages, and he lived off campus.
  • And I didn't know anything off campus because the beauty
  • of Waterloo is everything's right here.
  • You don't have to go off campus if you don't want to.
  • Well, somebody answered the door, and it was my French professor from the year before,
  • who said, "Mademoiselle, I recognize you.
  • What are you doing here?"
  • I said, "I'm sorry. I'm sorry.
  • Did I get the address wrong?
  • I was invited here by Harry Tuyn and his wife for dinner.
  • He said, "Oh, that lunatic," he said [chuckle].
  • And, you could imagine, I think I was 19, sitting there, "Why?"
  • "Oh, he lives out back and he lives in this little shed,
  • and I can't imagine why he would've invited you for dinner."
  • Well, my jaw dropped, and then laughter, everybody,
  • it was a joke, they were having me on.
  • Oh, and the rest of the evening was just fun and wonderful,
  • and I felt totally part of the family.
  • Anne Millar
    Oh, wow.
  • Judy Jewinski
    It was at that point that Professor Tuyn said to me, you know, if you want a career
  • in English, English as a second language, is something that is brand new to Canada.
  • And it really was true, we didn't even have English as a second language on campus,
  • we had some international students, but not very many.
  • I think most of them were grad students.
  • And then Harry Tuyn said to me, well you know,
  • I teach a conversation class for staff members on campus.
  • It's something the Dean of Arts pays me $200 to do as a side thing.
  • He said, if you wanted to take half of that class, I could teach you how
  • to approach second language teaching.
  • So, of course, you're going to have to get better at grammar because one course,
  • even if it was a year course, is not enough to be better at grammar.
  • So, that's what I did starting in ‘72, I worked with him.
  • He was amazing, and helpful, and he was such a wonderful mentor.
  • I was really lucky.
  • Meanwhile, on campus, I decided in my third year, yes,
  • drama I loved, but my future was in teaching.
  • And so I asked the English Department if I could switch into English, but I had only two courses
  • at that point, and usually it's your second year where you start getting involved in your major.
  • So I was going to end up having to take essentially two full years of English courses
  • if I wanted to graduate with a BA in English.
  • I thought, okay, well, I like English.
  • And Harry Tuyn has a number of courses I can take including some senior English
  • grammar courses.
  • And then there's linguistics, of course, and I was interested in that.
  • So I went wholeheartedly into English and specialized starting in year, basically year three.
  • Professors who were very important to me there,
  • Neil Hultin taught Linguistics he also taught Folklore,
  • and that was an amazing course as well.
  • And then Harry Logan who is Grace Logan's husband was a linguistics professor at Waterloo.
  • And I loved the courses he taught.
  • He was really thorough and he taught me how to parse sentences to the nth degree,
  • and parse parts of sentences, and parse parts of words.
  • And all of that was really helpful in teaching English.
  • Anne Millar
    And English as a second language, I would imagine, as well.
  • Judy Jewinski
    That's right.
  • That's right.
  • Anne Millar
    The more words, the more complicated the meaning.
  • Judy Jewinski
    That's right, and understanding all of where it comes from, and the logic of it.
  • And we even played around a little bit with phonics,
  • and phonemes and things like that as well.
  • So that all really made sense when I started grad school here.
  • Anne Millar
    Okay. And I had read that you had potentially considered working for the federal government,
  • but then, you decided to pursue.
  • Judy Jewinski
    Well, I hate to say that in 1973, the very best job for a summer student was working
  • for national revenue because the job started on the 1st of May and it kind
  • of petered out by the end of august.
  • Anne Millar
    So, how good was that.
  • Plus it paid government wages, and I was fortunate because I was bilingual.
  • And they also had some kind of skills test which was very much like all those IQ tests I'd done
  • when I was a kid, and so I've had no trouble with those.
  • And they offered me a position starting at $2.27 cents an hour when minimum wage was way less.
  • And within a month and a half, I was up to $5.25 cents an hour,
  • which was unheard of money for a student.
  • I was -- I spent a lot of it [laughing] that summer.
  • But I still had enough to pay my tuition for the last year I was to be at school.
  • And I was set to go back the following year when I finished my fourth year.
  • And I actually at that point thought I was going to graduate,
  • and go on to teachers college, that was the kind of goal.
  • Having worked again for national revenue, they had asked me at the end of my first time there,
  • at the end of my third year, they said we'd love to have you work full time.
  • I said, but I haven't finished my degree yet.
  • I'd like to do that first.
  • And so they understood, of course, they were very understanding.
  • They said well, you come back next May, and then you can have this job.
  • Well, by next May, I'd met my husband, and he had convinced me to do a master's degree here
  • because he was doing a master's degree.
  • And, yeah, that was okay.
  • I phoned Ottawa and said forget it.
  • I'm staying in Waterloo, and I Actually never left Waterloo after that.
  • I applied for grad school, was accepted.
  • Harry Tuyn and Harry Logan both wrote me really lovely letters,
  • and then there was the question of a TA.
  • Well, the awkward thing that happened when I came for orientation
  • as a grad student was I hadn't taken enough courses to graduate with my BA.
  • Judy Jewinski
  • Anne Millar
    Who knew, right, I didn't go asking advisors stuff,
  • which is funny because when I eventually became an advisor of students,
  • I was always hugely careful to make sure they had everything they needed to graduate.
  • Judy Jewinski
    All the requirements.
  • Anne Millar
    But there was no problem because I was already registered,
  • and taking Harry Tuyn's special fourth year grammar course which was the icing on the cake.
  • And they said, oh yeah well, you can take that course.
  • And you take that course, and you can graduate in '75, which was fine, okay.
  • But then there was this question of do I get a TA or not.
  • Fortunately, that was the beginning of the English 109 writing courses.
  • Mary Gerhardstein and Ken Ledbetter, together, were developing a program first of its kind
  • on campus to teach students how to write which was a really good idea.
  • And so I was one of the first of the cohort of teaching assistants assigned
  • to helping students practice their writing.
  • So, as a grad student I think this may still be true,
  • you're supposed to work 10 hours a week maximum -- 25 hours a week.
  • But 25 hours a week because you were planning, and preparing, and it took like 10 hours
  • to prepare for a half hour class, for heaven's sake, because you wanted to be ready
  • to answer any question that ever came up.
  • My grammar background really helped because I was able to tell students how to punctuate,
  • and help them understand how sentence variety really made a difference.
  • I had taken a course from Ken Ledbetter in my fourth year.
  • Actually, it was a grad course in the summer.
  • But we had to write essays and, of course, I could write essays quite well.
  • I had always been able to write well.
  • And I got a good grade on the paper, but Ken had written at the bottom,
  • "You really need to learn to punctuate."
  • I'm sorry?
  • I'm in Honours English, I know how to punctuate.
  • And then I read up on it and realized I didn't have a clue what punctuation was.
  • And it's a very structured kind of exercise, if you understand, if you understand the exercise,
  • and what punctuation really is supposed to do.
  • So that was another one of those oh, my goodness, my dear,
  • you really don't know what you're talking about, that helped me a lot.
  • Judy Jewinski
    Good potential for a learning opportunity.
  • Anne Millar
    Well, after one term of English 109 Mary Gerhardstein said we've got these international
  • students and they're really struggling in this course.
  • We really need to do an English 109.
  • For the time period, the Z designation I guess was okay.
  • So we had English 109 section Z, that was for international students.
  • And because I had the experience with Harry Tuyn,
  • I was invited to actually teach this course while I was doing my masters,
  • officially, by this point.
  • And I loved it.
  • It was just really fun to do.
  • And the students really enjoyed it.
  • And I loved knowing what I was doing most of the time.
  • And, again, it was a lot of hours, right?
  • Because well, we had textbooks, thank goodness,
  • I had the textbook Harry Tuyn had used which was a British textbook.
  • We didn't have any North American textbooks at the time at all.
  • And, I really depended on a few of the language textbooks that I had been working
  • with to organize and present classes.
  • But by the time I had finished my MA, I was working on an – an MPHIL [inaudible] at the time,
  • and thinking about going to grad school.
  • But there was no place in Canada to do a PhD in that.
  • Judy Jewinski
    Oh, interesting.
  • Anne Millar
    I was going to have to go to the States.
  • And I mean I was married.
  • By that point, you were married?
  • Yeah, I was not going to the states for a couple of years to get a PhD.
  • And nobody was asking me for one.
  • In fact, mostly, there were people on campus, a lot of people who were distinguished teachers
  • who didn't have a PhD because in those days, you didn't have to have it as long
  • as you were considered an expert in your field.
  • And at this point, I have been kind of designated an expert.
  • Prentice Hall asked me in the 80s to do a textbook for English language teaching
  • because we had the Vietnamese refugees the boat people in the end of the 70s,
  • and all of a sudden, everybody was paying attention
  • to English as a Second Language Teaching.
  • We started the first association of English language teachers in this area, was 1979,
  • and we had to have 25 people sign up to be an affiliate of the Teachers of English
  • as a Second Language Association of Ontario, TESL Ontario.
  • And we had most of those people come right out of the writing clinic --
  • we called it the clinic in those days -- but the writing clinic where I had been working
  • as an advisor for English as a Second Language.
  • I got my MA in '77 and was supposed to go then to teachers college in Toronto,
  • so I could teach ESL in high school,
  • and I taught at the University of Toronto for the summer.
  • And the supervisor there said, "Why are you going to teach English as a Second Language
  • at the high school level, when you've been teaching at university?"
  • I said, "Well, I don't know."
  • And so I thought well, okay, I'll think about it.
  • At that point, Ken Ledbetter offered me this position once a week on Fridays to come down --
  • because we were living in Toronto, my husband was doing his PhD at U of T --
  • come down once a week on Fridays, and help the writing clinic staff understand English
  • as a Second Language Teaching.
  • So I was delighted to say okay, I'll do that.
  • I found myself teaching a stint at the DeVry Institute of Technology teaching every morning
  • from eight to nine writing to people who wanted to be engineers -- more technical engineers.
  • And then suddenly in September my very dear professor Harry Tuyn had a stroke.
  • Third week of September 1977.
  • And Susan Bryant who had been working at the writing clinic, but whose husband taught
  • at Renison had said, Well you know, Judi can teach that course.
  • She's taught it before.
  • And so they asked me if I would be willing to fill in for Harry Tuyn while he recovered.
  • And the classes were at 10:30 Tuesdays and Thursdays 10:30 to, I guess,
  • 10:30 to noon. Well I taught in Toronto until 9:00.
  • And I got in my little Volkswagen Beetle and beetled down the 401 Tuesdays and Thursdays.
  • Judy Jewinski
    To teach the course.
  • Anne Millar
    I was never late, which my husband says I have a heavy foot,
  • and I expect that's probably true.
  • But so I taught at Renison starting officially in '77.
  • And then Harry never was able to teach again.
  • So, I just kept teaching at Renison.
  • They expanded the number of courses they offered, and it was perfect,
  • because I was teaching part-time, because I was now the writing clinic manager on campus.
  • And that was a 20-hour a week stint and I fit in my teaching at Renison around that.
  • No children, so lots of time to do whatever I needed to do to be ready for both those.
  • And I started teaching at Wilfrid Laurier part-time as well,
  • because we were we had bought a home that we wanted to buy, move up, and we did that.
  • In 1981, we bought a house out in St Clements, really great house.
  • It was, are you ready for how much it was -- [Chuckle] $48.000.
  • Judy Jewinski
    Oh, my goodness.
  • Anne Millar
    But that was 1981.
  • We just paid a cash to mortgage, and just assumed it.
  • And then in November that year, we had to remortgage.
  • Judy Jewinski
  • Anne Millar
    1981. Yes, 21 and 3/4 percent interest.
  • I mean people walked away from their houses.
  • Lots of people did.
  • But my husband and I just took on extra teaching [chuckle].
  • I was teaching four nights a week which I can't imagine, but still no kids.
  • So --
  • Judy Jewinski
    But still that's heavy.
  • Anne Millar
    It was a heavy load.
  • But my husband was teaching at Laurier.
  • And at that time Laurier was trying to develop an English as a Second Language program, too.
  • So they offered me there the opportunity to develop a summer program.
  • And so I developed a summer program for Laurier, where they would invite people from out
  • of the country to Laurier for the summer.
  • We had a six-week program.
  • It ran only two years because it wasn't a money maker.
  • And it wasn't a money maker because you have to pay people salaries,
  • and you have to do everything right.
  • At least, nobody had realized how much it could possibly cost to run something like that.
  • Judy Jewinski
    Well, it was so new.
  • Anne Millar
    It was so new.
  • Exactly. And meanwhile in 1982, I had my first child.
  • And I really, I just didn't have the energy or the time to devote to that kind of program.
  • And without a leader who was doing things on the cheap,
  • because I wasn't taking a huge salary for it, that just died.
  • And that was okay.
  • I had my teaching job at Renison, and I'd given up the Writing Centre by that point
  • because I mean there's only so much time in a day.
  • And I had signed the contract with Prentice Hall to do the book, to do the book.
  • So I did that from '82 to '86.
  • It took me four years to put it all together.
  • And Prentice Hall published English Made Easy in 1987.
  • Judy Jewinski
    And that was your first book?
  • Anne Millar
    That was my first book.
  • Yeah, not the last.
  • Judy Jewinski
    Not the last.
  • I'd love to go back a little bit just to know your thoughts on what the University
  • of Waterloo was like when you were here as a student.
  • Was it as muddy as they talk about in the early days, or by that point, the university was quite big?
  • Anne Millar
    But the mud and dreams was over by the time I got here.
  • The dreams were really very much there. The Faculty of Arts was a solid faculty.
  • Really good instructors, good people, lovely people, really open.
  • The best part for me was the fact that there was a Dean of Women.
  • In those days we needed a Dean of Women, and there was an associate dean of women Issy [Isobel] Mackay
  • who also spent her career at Waterloo,
  • and we were on committees together way back in the beginning of the 2000s.
  • She had a 15 minute interview with every single first year student female on campus.
  • Judy Jewinski
    Every single student.
  • Anne Millar
    It was and I remember her 15 minutes with me.
  • I've never forgot she was so interested in what I was hoping to do at Waterloo
  • and what Waterloo could do to make things wonderful for me.
  • I mean we do that now as a matter of course, but in those days, people just didn't do that.
  • You went to university, and you sucked up whatever kind
  • of awful experiences you might have.
  • And there were Dons in Residence and I became a Don for two years,
  • in the last two years of my bachelor's degree.
  • But in those days too, you know, one of the pieces of advice -- I have to say this --
  • I think one of the pieces of advice we gave to students was which professors you didn't want
  • to have classes with because they were a little too --
  • they were prone to taking advantage of students --
  • I mean we kind of understood that what the world was like.
  • And look at the world now.
  • I'm thrilled to see the progress.
  • And you can actually really see -- there hasn't been enough progress for a lot of people.
  • But the progress from for 50 years I think is still amazing, really.
  • Judy Jewinski
    We don't think about where we came from to today.
  • Anne Millar
    Because where we came from, you had to allow guys
  • to be jerks especially if everybody had been drinking.
  • I mean it was just, that's what the world was like.
  • Judy Jewinski
    That was the expectation, yes.
  • Anne Millar
    So when -- yes.
  • Judy Jewinski
    But so the women took kind of care of each other by the time, would watch out for --
  • Anne Millar
    We absolutely -- and that was what the female Dons did, is we took care of the 48 kids
  • on our floor, and we made sure that things, bad things didn't happen to them.
  • Or if they did, we knew what to do.
  • Yeah, that was really important, and that was kind of a mentoring thing, too.
  • Because you're a third or fourth year student, and you have first and second year students.
  • We didn't know anything in first year, we thought we were so smart.
  • Judy Jewinski
    So grown up.
  • Anne Millar
    So grown up.
  • Judy Jewinski
    So much freedom.
  • Anne Millar
    Oh I have a 13-year-old granddaughter.
  • And I look at her, and I think oh, my gosh.
  • Yeah.
  • Judy Jewinski
    Everything feels like the beginning of knowing so much more, right, when you're 13,
  • you think you have the world kind of at your fingertips,
  • and you don't know what you don't know until you know it.
  • Anne Millar
    And actually, in my thirties, I thought I knew pretty much everything.
  • I really did.
  • I remember doing a workshop with Issy for mature students, because we had a category
  • in those days of people defined as mature students who hadn't gone to university
  • at the 18-year-old stage, but were coming to it in their 30s and 40s.
  • We ran a six-week workshop which introduced them to what it was like to be in a class.
  • I was the professor responsible for teaching how to write a short essay.
  • Geoff Hayes who is a history faculty member in history here even now was a beginner
  • at that time, and he gave a lecture.
  • I had given a workshop on taking notes, so that they knew how to take notes in the lecture.
  • Then they wrote an essay based on the lecture and then we marked it.
  • And, of course, it was all to be very encouraging and to assure people
  • that there were people who would help if they ran into trouble.
  • That was Issy was the director of mature students services, and she was she was amazing.
  • She was amazing.
  • Judy Jewinski
    And it sounds like she was ahead of her time in the way she approached --
  • Anne Millar
    Oh, that was the thing I loved about Waterloo is that well,
  • certainly from my parents, who were at Queens.
  • None of that was happening at Queens.
  • And friends of ours at Wilfrid Laurier -- well, Wilfrid Laurier which was Waterloo Lutheran
  • until 1973, I had visited there because I'd actually loved Waterloo when I came,
  • and I thought well, maybe if Waterloo doesn't take me,
  • maybe Laurier or Waterloo Lutheran will.
  • And I thought oh no, this is just like boarding school.
  • I'm graduating from boarding school, I'm going to Waterloo because it was very modern.
  • And the wonderful thing about my English degree was that it wasn't a traditional English degree.
  • A traditional English degree is an English literature degree.
  • And with Harry Logan as my sort of mentor to do my BA, well he helped Gordon Slethaug,
  • who's still a member of faculty here,
  • Gordon Slethaug was director of grad studies at that time.
  • And I had really wanted to do language.
  • They didn't have rhetoric and professional writing in those days either.
  • But they worked it out so that I was going to be able to do language-oriented papers
  • in response to the courses I was taking.
  • And it was just it was tailor made.
  • It was tailor made for me.
  • I mean it.
  • What's not to love, right.
  • Judy Jewinski
    That flexibility to pursue what you were passionate about.
  • Anne Millar
    That's right.
  • But they still didn't let me get my BA until I had my 20 courses.
  • Judy Jewinski
    Oh my goodness.
  • Do you remember what your favourite course was when you were in your graduate studies?
  • Anne Millar
    Well, the graduate linguistics course with Harry was really lots of fun.
  • But I really enjoyed a Canadian course that I took with Stan McMullen
  • because he had allowed me to do a comparative analysis
  • of Marie-Claire Blais comparing the English and the English translation of the French original.
  • And I did it line by line, and it was an incredible difference
  • that I realized you can't get the subtleties of French, not the language so much,
  • but the subtleties of the culture just don't translate the same way.
  • And it was it was a real eye opener, so that was wonderful.
  • I love the work I did for what turned out to be -- well, it was called a cognate essay.
  • But it was a 250-page essentially a thesis, nowadays. yes where I analysed 10.000 words
  • of running pros from the Brown Corpus -- now computers were just getting to be exciting.
  • You could have a corpus of text made available to you, and so I did an analysis
  • of 10 different styles of writing, and it was just, it was super eye-opening I loved it.
  • It was just great to do that kind of work, and I put the Beatles White Album
  • on in the background, and just analysed away every night.
  • Judy Jewinski
    Focussed [chuckle].
  • Anne Millar
    But it wasn't all work like that
  • as a grad student I had organized poetry readings on campus.
  • And we and because I really enjoyed Canadian studies, and we had Irving Layton.
  • I drove Irving Layton down in my Volkswagen Beetle from Toronto
  • so he could give a poetry reading.
  • And John Newlove.
  • Joe Rosenblatt, you know Governor General's Award Winner, came to Waterloo.
  • And, of course, they didn't have huge crowds.
  • They had people in attendance but it was just utterly wonderful to have that experience,
  • and they were so generous with their time too.
  • It was just, and I don't think we paid them very much.
  • An honorarium, barely.
  • I really think it was dinner.
  • Judy Jewinski
    Yes, dinner and a drink.
  • Anne Millar
    Yeah [chuckle].
  • Judy Jewinski
    So did you feel this sense of a small community and a close knit community?
  • Anne Millar
    Absolutely, in a context where math and engineering were big deals,
  • one of the selling points for Waterloo for me had been
  • that on campus you had two women for every seven men.
  • So, when you're 18, you say oh, I could probably meet my husband here.
  • And of course, engineers were everywhere, because --
  • in fact when I was in first year, I loved playing football.
  • I loved the fact that we had flag football for women on campus.
  • My floor won two, two cups, two trophies over the four years I played.
  • And I met my first boyfriend on campus in a football game, we were playing football.
  • That was my favourite sport.
  • And so we got to be good friends -- three or four girls, and this floor of guys.
  • It was North E, in what was called Village 2.
  • Ron Eydt was the Warden, Mike Vatcher was our tutor, and we played bridge together.
  • I loved playing bridge, played bridge probably more
  • than I should, but I kept up with my papers.
  • But we also played Jeopardy.
  • Jeopardy was at 12:30 Monday to Friday.
  • Art Fleming was the host, and the entire room was packed with people playing Jeopardy,
  • and we all shouted out the answers.
  • And in second year, we picked our courses, so that we could have
  • that 12:30 slot available so we could play Jeopardy.
  • Judy Jewinski
    The poor professor who had their class scheduled --
  • Anne Millar
    Right, well.
  • We were a bunch of students from all over.
  • So I don't think anybody had empty seats.
  • But, Jeopardy and bridge those were, and football were my big things.
  • Judy Jewinski
    Really a sense of community that you felt here.
  • Anne Millar
  • So Village 2 at the time, Ron Eydt Village now.
  • Village 2, the floors were very close, and we did all sorts of things.
  • Renison was a close community too.
  • My best friend in third year was a Don at Renison, and I got to know sort of the community
  • of Renison, not only because of Harry Tuyn, but because of her.
  • I remember going bowling with a bunch of floor kids and being a lousy bowler.
  • I just never bowled again [laughing].
  • Judy Jewinski
    I did want to speak to you about the changes that you saw at Renison, because, as you said,
  • you've been so you were at the school for a while.
  • And for 45 years you taught at Renison University College.
  • Anne Millar
  • Judy Jewinski
    What were your initial impressions, I guess, when you joined Renison?
  • Anne Millar
    Well, when you talk about a sense of community, it was a community.
  • The principal, when I was hired in 1977, was brand new.
  • He was Ian Campbell came from Concordia University, he was the Dean of Arts there.
  • And Renison had undergone some issues with staffing, and he was bound and determined
  • to bring everybody together as a community.
  • And so probably in October, and I'd been teaching there three weeks,
  • he had a faculty dinner that was a formal sit down a good old British dinner
  • with enough cutlery to boggle the mind, and all sorts of different glasses,
  • because there was sherry, and there was wine.
  • And it was an amazing feast.
  • And we all sat together in a u-shaped arrangement in the dining hall
  • at Renison, and got to know each other.
  • And I still have, I mean I still have my best friends are from those very days like from '77.
  • The Bryants were there, Michael Smyth who I replaced as administrative dean back in 2008.
  • He was there.
  • Michael Bird, the former Principal Donald G. M'Timkulu.
  • We all got to know each other really, really well.
  • And we were small enough faculty that Ian had parties regularly.
  • And we were all really a big happy family
  • which is what Renison still is except it's so much bigger.
  • It's so much bigger.
  • The English Language Institute, which I founded,
  • is now bigger than Renison was when I in the 70s.
  • Judy Jewinski
    Can you talk about the founding of the institute, and the background to it, please?
  • Anne Millar
    So Gail Cuthbert Brandt became Principal of Renison in 1992,
  • and that was her, it was really her dream.
  • Ian Campbell had been our principal for 15 years.
  • And when he retired, he had been talking to people about establishing an English language,
  • because we had the only English language program on campus.
  • Students went to Conestoga College college for spoken English,
  • but the writing was all done by us when they got here.
  • So at any rate, because of our expertise in writing, Gail said well,
  • there are people who've got expertise in teaching and speaking.
  • Let's see if we can't develop a program.
  • Well, the first year the English Language Institute started was 1994.
  • There were four students who doctoral students in Optometry actually, I believe.
  • And one instructor who was an expert in writing, and arranged activities
  • for them sort of around the classes.
  • But it was really that was a pilot project.
  • I had been I was on sabbatical.
  • Well, my husband's sabbatical.
  • I was on a leave in '94 because that was when we went to Paris and studied with Samuel Beckett.
  • But when I got back, Gail said I'd really like to see this get off the ground.
  • Let's try for something for next year.
  • So, together with John Vardon who was the original instructor,
  • we put together a program for 1995, there were 11 students.
  • It was more writing than speaking and the students got a lot out of it
  • because they were intending to go to university.
  • But it wasn't fun.
  • Well it was -- sorry, it was fun, but it was -- it wasn't.
  • It was tedious?
  • Judy Jewinski
    It wasn't fun.
  • Anne Millar
    There weren't great wonderful activities around it.
  • But that year a woman walked into my office and said I'm doing my teaching degree at Brock.
  • And I really would like you to be my mentor, and I was teaching writing at the time.
  • I said well, I don't even know if I teach enough courses for you to be you know, to count.
  • I said but, oh why not?
  • And I thought this is my opportunity to be a mentor,
  • just as Harry Tuyn had been a mentor for me.
  • Her name is Tanya Missere Mihas.
  • She's the Vice President of Community Education at Renison now.
  • She's wonderful, she was wonderful.
  • She walked in, and I thought wow, you're wonderful.
  • Why don't you and I do this course?
  • We'll do this summer program.
  • She wasn't married at the time, didn't have children, obviously, yet.
  • I had two kids but they were 14, and 12, or 13 and 11, something like that.
  • So they became the summer help, right, and we had 11 kids in the program.
  • And we did a whole weekend activities.
  • We did five hours of classes during the day, we had evening programs.
  • And we, I mean it was all purely volunteer on most of our parts.
  • We got paid but not for you know, 20 hours a day.
  • Because that's kind of what it took to put the whole thing together.
  • But by the time we did that, by the time we got to 1997,
  • all of a sudden we were getting 40 students in the summer program, and it was a success.
  • So we went from four students to 11 students, and then another 11 students, and then 25,
  • and then 40, and then it we never stopped.
  • Judy Jewinski
    Off and running.
  • Anne Millar
    And Gail was totally supportive all along.
  • She did absolutely everything I asked her to do to make it happen.
  • And, yeah, now we have the English Language Institute at Renison
  • which does the English language training for the whole university, for everybody.
  • Judy Jewinski
    That's amazing.
  • Anne Millar
    And yeah, and it started with four students.
  • Judy Jewinski
    And your children [chuckle].
  • Anne Millar
    And well, actually, my older daughter was a program assistant once we had a lot of students,
  • she was a Don in residence for the summer.
  • And she eventually went to university and became a public school teacher.
  • Didn't last long, because she met a wonderful man who she married, and she has four children,
  • and she writes in her spare time, when she has spare time.
  • But I have great souvenir scrapbooks from those days when we had this program.
  • And my younger daughter, Danielle, taught me a fabulous lesson when she was 12.
  • And I was I think asking her why she was totally capable of speaking proper English at home.
  • But that when I heard her with her friends she would say stuff like, "I shoulda went."
  • I'm saying, "How is that?"
  • And she said, "Well, I speak two languages, mom.
  • Mom talk and kid talk."
  • And I thought, "Oh, she's absolutely right.
  • Where did I get off of thinking you were supposed to speak an academic kind
  • of English just because we're an academic kind of family, right?
  • Judy Jewinski
    As a preteen.
  • Anne Millar
  • It was totally, well, she told me off [laughing].
  • And she is now working for the Government of Ontario working on Elections Ontario.
  • And she uses both her English and her French because our kids grew up bilingual.
  • Judy Jewinski
    Yes, that's a great advantage.
  • Anne Millar
    It was.
  • It is, it still is.
  • Judy Jewinski
    So, my message to anybody who has an opportunity to have kids growing
  • up bilingual, not to shut any doors.
  • Because you know, in 1995, when we had the referendum,
  • I took my kids to see what voting was like.
  • And in the voting booth I had them read the questions with me in English and French.
  • And in English, I voted one way, and in French, I voted the other.
  • It was just totally amazing because of the way it was put.
  • And the French one said, "Do you accept or maybe the English one said, well,
  • one of them said, "Do you accept X, Y and Z?"
  • The other one said do you agree?
  • And of course I can accept things that I don't necessarily agree with for the good
  • of whatever, and that was a huge shock.
  • So, yeah.
  • Anne Millar
    Well, that was very fascinating.
  • I'd love to know the big changes that you saw at Renison during your time there?
  • Judy Jewinski
    So from a faculty that was very small, I think 11 people in total at the beginning,
  • it's now a college full of departments.
  • There's the Department of Culture and Language Studies,
  • the Department of Social Development Studies.
  • There's the School of Social Work.
  • But there's also the English Language Institute which is its own institute.
  • And so it's just grown [chuckle] which means which means you don't have the closeness
  • that you're able to have -- for all the time that Ian Campbell was there,
  • the turnover was, there wasn't turnover.
  • People started at Renison and stayed there until they retired,
  • which is essentially I guess what I did.
  • And there are still colleagues of mine who are there, who've been there since the 90s.
  • And but of course all sorts of new people, too.
  • And they fit in in a beautiful way.
  • Founder's Day at Renison are enormous affairs now.
  • Ian Campbell started Founder's Day back in the 80s, I think, or late 70s, early 80s.
  • And you went because, gosh, if you didn't go [chuckle] the place was empty.
  • Whereas now, it's huge.
  • Anne Millar
    Oh, that's amazing.
  • And would you say the student body changed?
  • Were they -- the typical student in the early days as compared to today?
  • Judy Jewinski
    Well, okay.
  • So 60s and 70s, we were, I remember going to classes barefoot.
  • And we smoked in class, for heaven's sake up until --
  • whew, you smoked in class for the whole 70s, for sure.
  • People would say ooh, it's yucky, but everybody smoked.
  • There were some radicals in the mid-70s, I mean we're all you know --
  • Anne Millar
  • Judy Jewinski
    Well, when you're in your twenties, you think you can change the world.
  • Little steps, right?
  • But we were out there demonstrating [chuckle].
  • But students still wanted to have successful careers.
  • Originally university wasn't supposed to get you a career.
  • It was supposed to expand your horizons and make you a smart,
  • wonderful person who would be a member of a community.
  • But the goal was not to get you a job, although co-op was certainly for people who had,
  • I mean co-op, wasn't there for art students.
  • Anne Millar
    I was going to ask you for Renison co-op.
  • Judy Jewinski
    And not until the 80s, did we start talking, there was a program here called Applied Arts.
  • I can't remember quite what it was.
  • It was the precursor for the Arts and Business program, and that was unusual
  • for arts programs anywhere, because art students didn't have co-op.
  • And you could take this program and you could have a co-op component to your arts degree,
  • which was also -- I know it's a cliche to say Waterloo is innovative.
  • I mean we've been being innovative for an awfully long time.
  • But we really are.
  • The thing for me, Waterloo is always at the front edge of new things, and trying new things.
  • And people worked hard together to make those new things work.
  • And, for example, Peter Swan and the East Asian Studies program at Renison.
  • That began at the end of the 80s, and it was a brand new thing for us.
  • The people who taught Japanese, Korean, and Chinese are still friends today.
  • And it was that kind of a family climate.
  • You were constructing something good and new for everybody.
  • Anne Millar
    Building something new together.
  • Judy Jewinski
  • Anne Millar
  • Oh, I love that.
  • I love that because there's an energy behind that, when you're working
  • with people on something new or something.
  • I do think innovative is the right word, it's cliche for a reason [chuckle].
  • Judy Jewinski
    Well, that's right.
  • We know what cliches are.
  • Cliches are things that have been said over, and over, and over, and over, and over.
  • But the fact is that Waterloo does keep reinventing itself.
  • And so, therefore, I mean, okay, find a different word,
  • but innovative does make good sense that way.
  • Anne Millar
    Yes. If you were to think of another word what would that word be?
  • Judy Jewinski
  • Anne Millar
    I know, I'm putting you on the spot.
  • Judy Jewinski
    That is really on the spot.
  • I have not given that any thought.
  • Responsive is a good word.
  • And responsible.
  • The two together, I think.
  • But that doesn't include the innovation, and the creativity, and the and the energy.
  • Because yeah there's a lot of energy.
  • One of the things I have to say I regret about nowadays is that when we were a young faculty,
  • we really believed that there was never a clock on us.
  • I mean that was the 25 hours a week when you were supposed to be working 10.
  • Well, you had 10 hours maybe in the classroom, but how did you get there?
  • You never put a clock on it.
  • Just as when you write a book, you don't sit there and say well,
  • I'm only going to spend a hundred hours on this thing, and then it's done.
  • No. You put in what you need to do to make it work, and that was the founders
  • of the university, and the founders of the colleges, the initial faculty members were
  • in it together, and totally enthusiastic about building something that students would love.
  • It's still true today that students are very happy, generally speaking, certainly at Renison.
  • I can't speak for the students across campus.
  • But certainly the ones I had in my classes were always very happy to be listened to
  • and to be welcomed into your office, even though they didn't go to office hours very much.
  • But if they ever needed somebody, they knew where to go,
  • and I think that spirit is still part of it, too.
  • Anne Millar
    It's still there.
  • Judy Jewinski
    When I was working for the provost, I really got to know the other faculties,
  • because I was responsible for English competency around the campus.
  • And there were pilot projects in every faculty.
  • Mostly it started with the associate deans.
  • And I knew the associate deans from my stint at Renison, in the dean's office, they were all,
  • to a person, totally committed to this university.
  • That's what I really loved, and senior management too.
  • The associate provost, the academic vice president --
  • everybody really, really cared what happened.
  • And so, and I have to mention also the Centre
  • for Teaching Excellence is an amazing unit on campus.
  • It started as TRACE way back when I was in the Writing Centre.
  • TRACE was Teaching Resources and Continuing Education --
  • everything jammed into one unit, tiny unit.
  • Now look at continuing education, and look at --
  • Anne Millar
    Yes, it's grown.
  • Judy Jewinski
    -- Distance education, and all of that.
  • But all across campus people cared about what the students came away with,
  • that they were well prepared for the future, really.
  • And people accepted, in the 21st century, people began to accept it,
  • you don't stop learning to write when you graduate from high school
  • because really you are writing all your life.
  • So having support for that is vital. When the writing centre here on campus began to go
  • out to students instead of having an exam which forced students to come to them.
  • It made all the difference for everybody.
  • Anne Millar
    Can you say how?
  • Judy Jewinski
    Well, one of the things, of course, was that Waterloo really believed
  • that the English Language Proficiency program, or exam, the exam --
  • let's talk about the exam for a bit -- worked.
  • Because it identified students who are weak.
  • Okay, yes it did do that.
  • And in engineering, the correlation between students who are weak in writing and students
  • who are weak in engineering was incredible.
  • But it wasn't, it wasn't that, it was just these students were weak.
  • And writing an exam to single them out, especially in orientation week,
  • which is supposed to, which was a lot of fun for a lot of students,
  • and then wake up on Wednesday morning and go and sit in the pack and write an exam, you say whoa,
  • what kind of message are we sending there?
  • And so when we started talking about it among ourselves, and, specifically,
  • because of the Gordon Stubley Language Competency Committee Report,
  • people said, yeah, there's a better way.
  • And when you look around, you say,
  • other universities didn't have exams, do we really need an exam?
  • Couldn't we take a look at building communication
  • into courses throughout from first to fourth year?
  • Why not? And when we said why not?
  • We said well, yeah, of course we can.
  • So we created these pilot projects in math, for example.
  • You say, "Math?
  • There's writing in math?
  • But they had an introductory accounting course, that was a perfect fit for a writing component.
  • And we had students write, and we helped them with the writing.
  • And they were better
  • at the end, and we could point measurably to improvement.
  • And in engineering the same thing.
  • In fact, across all the faculties.
  • And now we've got really good communication programs everywhere, and everybody acts, as if,
  • oh yeah, this is perfectly normal.
  • Anne Millar
  • Judy Jewinski
    And it is.
  • And we're glad to see it.
  • Anne Millar
    How do you think the need was identified?
  • Judy Jewinski
    So, basically, there was a lot of grumbling about the English Language Proficiency Exam.
  • But more importantly, the Writing Centre, wasn't able to accommodate lots of people
  • because there were all these students who'd failed the exam who had to go.
  • We were very pleased to get support for grad students who never wrote an exam
  • but grad students were welcomed into the Writing Centre at the beginning of the 21st century.
  • In fact, we developed an entire program for grad students starting in 2003,
  • because otherwise it was okay, well you're here, good luck [laughing].
  • And then why not help them with speaking, and writing, and presentation skills?
  • We were hearing a lot of grumbling about even faculty members who couldn't speak English well enough
  • as people said, couldn't speak English well enough to make themselves understood in class
  • and a lot of complaining about that.
  • That's fair enough.
  • If you can't understand your instructor, well, what are you going to do?
  • So we began to look at ways of helping them.
  • Now we back in the 70s, when I was a grad student, we had a program for grad students,
  • we had volunteer tutors, volunteer tutors who were grad students
  • who spoke English as a first language.
  • And we paired them up with students who were from all over,
  • and that was really a wonderful help for them.
  • The international student office took that over, and began offering tutoring
  • and conversation partners way back in the 80s, early 80s.
  • Yeah, that developed out of the grad student program.
  • But there wasn't anything specific for grad students in terms of presentation skills,
  • and so on until the beginning of the 2000s.
  • We did that as a kind of a practice, well, pilot project.
  • The dean of grad studies was very helpful, and paid for all of that to happen,
  • and then in 19 -- not 19, in 2006, we did a study to see whether there was improvement
  • of abilities across campus -- perceived abilities.
  • Anne Millar
    Perceived abilities.
  • Judy Jewinski
    And the results were amazing.
  • I mean it was really, you could tell that there was a difference.
  • And there was a difference in attitude.
  • People were becoming way more tolerant of accent, and of faculty --
  • even faculty members were seeking out assistance
  • because there wasn't a stigma attached to it anymore.
  • And I think that was the best thing that we were able to do,
  • is not to have a label or a stigma attached.
  • I mean it is what it is, you can't do that much about it.
  • But people are generally more understanding. I'll give you a good example of that actually.
  • In 2001, I replaced Michael Smyth for a year while he was on sabbatical.
  • And it was my first experience with administration on campus.
  • Part of administration is going to the undergraduate affairs group, UGAG for Arts.
  • And I could see that there was a real need for our students at Renison to learn sign language.
  • And so I took, as a proposal or just as a query really, to UGAG.
  • I said now, what would you think if we offered,
  • if we proposed to offer a sign language course for credit?
  • Well in 2001, no way.
  • That wasn't an official language, it wasn't a language as we understand them.
  • Yes, Japanese, and Korean, and French, and Spanish and Arabic,
  • and all of those languages are languages.
  • But sign language, no.
  • One of the wonderful things for me before I retired was
  • to have UGAG accept American Sign Language as a credit course,
  • and to have people say well, it's about time.
  • See things change over time, right?
  • You just have to persevere.
  • I mean at the beginning, there was no English as a Second Language credit course,
  • and we said well, there should be.
  • Let's make it happen, and it happened.
  • So a lot of people working together to say yeah, this isn't a bad idea.
  • Let's see how it plays out.
  • Anne Millar
    And see what we can do.
  • Judy Jewinski
  • Anne Millar
    Can I talk a bit about your time as administrative dean?
  • Judy Jewinski
  • Anne Millar
    And kind of what your hopes were when you took on the role, and your mandate.
  • Judy Jewinski
    So administrative dean.
  • I had been the director of the English Language Institute, I had the experience
  • from 2001 having replaced Michael Smyth.
  • And in 2008, when he retired, they needed somebody in the position.
  • I was happy to put my name forward because I had been a student advisor ever since 2001.
  • Once you develop a skill set, people don't want to have you just sit there
  • in your office and do your own thing.
  • So I had that experience.
  • I had the experience a lot of experience with developing rapport on campus with people
  • in the Faculty of Arts because we had been developing English
  • as a Second Language courses designated ESL.
  • And four credit courses, so I had gone to UGAG a lot, I had gone to Arts Admissions.
  • And we knew, I knew a lot of people, and I liked them.
  • The thing that is quite wonderful about the Faculty of Arts for me,
  • it was everybody was really hardworking and let's work together.
  • And not a hundred percent, of course, not a hundred percent.
  • But most people really genuinely wanted success for students.
  • And that's where the following up becoming administrative dean I had
  • that skill set and the expertise.
  • And I also really did have in the back of my mind a couple of goals.
  • One of them was I liked very much working with the Centre for Teaching Excellence,
  • helping faculty members develop their teaching skills and their confidence.
  • So I thought in that position, I would have that opportunity.
  • But also, it wasn't just that, it was working with the students,
  • it was working with everybody, the staff.
  • And I also had been Harassment
  • and Discrimination Advisor at Renison since the early 90s.
  • And I appreciated how important it was for people to understand issues
  • around accessibility, and issues around, well, when you say accessibility,
  • accessibility for language as much as accessibility physical,
  • emotional, and all of those things.
  • So I thought well, I think I'm the right person for this.
  • And we had an interim principal at the time who said well,
  • if we seek an associate dean, then we have a competition.
  • But if you become administrative dean, that's an administrative position, not an academic one.
  • You still do all the academic things, too.
  • I was, by that point, associate, adjunct associate professor.
  • So would you consider doing that?
  • I'm happy to, yeah.
  • So I did that from 2008 to 2012, enjoying working with everybody.
  • But in 2012, when before 2012 --
  • so 2011, I really encouraged my colleague Gord Stubley
  • to take the English Language Competency Review because it was clear
  • that things weren't working across campus.
  • And I really, I talked him into it.
  • Anne Millar
    [Chuckle] Twisted his arm a little bit.
  • Judy Jewinski
    I did, I said you're the only person who could do this, Gord.
  • And he did a wonderful job with the other members of his committee.
  • We were able to get somebody from outside Waterloo,
  • an ESL expert from Mount Royal College in Alberta.
  • And those people, that committee -- Bud Walker was on it, too.
  • Bud Walker was an associate vice president of the university,
  • and he wasn't at the beginning really involved in this.
  • But he got excited and involved, and that was really lovely to see.
  • He changed his mind about how things should be, and he was terrifically supportive.
  • The main result of the committee recommendations was that they should get somebody
  • to do pilot projects, and get this going.
  • And that's when the Academic Vice President Geoff McBoyle at that time,
  • and asked me if I would take that responsibility on,
  • and be seconded by the university to do that.
  • Renison was a little perturbed that maybe they were trying
  • to steal the English Language Institute.
  • I have to be frank about that, people were concerned that maybe
  • that was why the university had asked me to do it.
  • I didn't think that because I really thought hey, I'm pretty much the only person
  • who knows all these parts of the communications piece because I worked
  • with the English Department, worked with the Writing Centre,
  • I'd worked with the English Language Institute.
  • I'd worked with CTE even, and all these places where
  • and even international student advising, right?
  • So I was able to be seconded, and I worked for two and a half years on projects.
  • Absolutely loved getting to know everybody.
  • Really did.
  • But in 2014, there was a turnover in the deanship at Renison.
  • And Wendy Fletcher, who's the new principal, now President asked me if I would come
  • and be Administrative Dean again.
  • That coincided with pretty much wrapping up of the work that I was doing on campus.
  • Things were going hummingly and everybody had taken ownership of it, so it was a perfect fit.
  • And I did that for two years again, until I retired in 2017.
  • But the best part, honestly, was that I had been on campus for two and a half years,
  • and I'd gotten to know the Waterloo that I'd always loved.
  • I'd gotten to know all of it, and I was really happy that it was such a good place.
  • Anne Millar
    It still felt like the Waterloo from your early years?
  • Judy Jewinski
    Oh, for sure.
  • It absolutely did.
  • Anne Millar
    And the associate deans I worked were extraordinarily committed.
  • They really were wonderful, wonderful people.
  • And the associate deans do a lot of the running of the everyday stuff.
  • And they were totally committed.
  • Just great to work with them.
  • But the best part I think of seeing things work so wonderfully on campus and have
  • that change take place, was that for me it took place also.
  • And I realized I wasn't only a Renison person, so that when I retired, or when I went back
  • to Renison, I didn't, I mean I felt comfortable being back.
  • But I didn't feel as if it was the be all and end all that it had originally been for me.
  • You know, I've been at Renison at 40 years, I would say, and I was like oh, that's a long time.
  • Being on campus really broadened the experience.
  • It was wonderful.
  • I'm an extremely grateful person to this university.
  • I'm a big fan [chuckle].
  • Judy Jewinski
    If you were to cast your thoughts forward to what you hope for the university,
  • so there's a big kind of effort or discussion right now
  • about what Waterloo will be like at a hundred years.
  • What we hope for the university at a hundred years. What would you hope to see?
  • I hope to see continued progress because I know it's possible.
  • So little steps, no dramatic changes,
  • because people don't respond well to dramatic change anyway.
  • But all the programs that you have in place now, the equity, the diversity.
  • I mean, yeah, I love to see that.
  • And I think it just can get better and better.
  • I am concerned about issues around wanting things to get better,
  • and better, and better, but way too fast.
  • Because people get disgruntled and unhappy.
  • I was mentioning before the fact that we never put a time clock on our hours.
  • Now, of course, with work life balance people say, no, 35 hours a week, and I'm done.
  • Say, okay, but 30 -- and I agree, there has to be work life balance.
  • My husband and I had the work life balance of we put our kids to bed,
  • and then we sat across from each other and marked papers, and we did stuff like that.
  • That was our life, we were happy with it.
  • So I think that's where we really need to be concerned with making sure
  • that people understand that maintaining their scholarship, it's important too --
  • and there's no clock on that -- and staying aware of what's going on.
  • Not saying oh, this is what I'm doing for work and this is what I'm doing for leisure.
  • Because a lot of what you can do for leisure -- I'm reminded, and it makes me laugh --
  • because dean, one of my husband's deans came into -- my husband teaches literature or taught.
  • And the dean came into his office, and said you know,
  • whenever I walk by your office, you're always reading.
  • And he said it in such a way as you're not actually working you know,
  • you're not marking papers, you're reading.
  • And my husband said, but that's what I do [laughing].
  • Anne Millar
    That's right.
  • Judy Jewinski
    That's my job.
  • So I would like people to be -- and commitment to the profession means going
  • to conferences, and things like that.
  • Developing those papers and practising those presentations,
  • that doesn't fit into a 35-hour week, really.
  • So I hope we'll figure out a way of making people feel happier
  • about doing all those wonderful things that make them, that made them good at what they do
  • because all of that makes Waterloo better and better.
  • Anne Millar
    I love that, and certainly when you're looking at a faculty member, as you mentioned,
  • the responsibilities are so wide ranging.
  • And to be successful, they really have to take part in all these different pieces.
  • Judy Jewinski
    So mentoring is the one thing that I think should be encouraged everywhere.
  • You know, the Centre for Teaching excellence does that.
  • And I think all across the university, faculty members, are being mentored,
  • new faculty being mentored by older more experienced faculty.
  • And that's absolutely how it should be.
  • And I love seeing students being mentored by their professors, as well.
  • And programs where students get research experience by helping professors.
  • Not being exploited, but working together.
  • And that's how it really should be.
  • Anne Millar
    It feels like that happens at Waterloo, this working together, this partnership between --
  • Judy Jewinski
    For me it really does feel as if it's committed to doing that.
  • Anne Millar
    I'm just going to make sure I didn't forget any questions.
  • But you spoke about professional service, because I was interested
  • and in the work you've done yourself, but was that through mentoring that you became aware
  • of how important that was volunteering, kind of giving back to your community and beyond?
  • Judy Jewinski
    I think I was brought up with that.
  • Certainly, when I was in boarding school, volunteering was part of it.
  • You took part in in all the activities to make the community a community.
  • And I think I started really my career of volunteering that way.
  • And being an Anglican helps because there are all opportunities,
  • of course, always, opportunities for them.
  • But my parents were also very committed to volunteering for the community.
  • My mother in particular.
  • I would spend evenings with my dad while my mother went off, and she was part of groups
  • on campus at Queen’s that initially mentored young women, as well.
  • Anne Millar
    She would've been one of the pioneers.
  • Judy Jewinski
    One of the pioneers, yes.
  • Anne Millar
    Yes, absolutely.
  • Yeah, I was very lucky to have her as a mom, and I was very lucky to be an only child, too,
  • because it was kind of undivided attention.
  • [Laughter].
  • But, and I also think that I was a good language teacher because I had a sense of that.
  • I marked papers for her, for example, when I was in high school.
  • Judy Jewinski
    I see the ties from your early years.
  • You said, being in Switzerland, and having to essentially learn a new language,
  • and it not be your first language.
  • And then your work later when you became involved in English as a Second Language.
  • Anne Millar
    I know, it really does it makes a lot of sense to me that that's how I ended up.
  • I wouldn't have been great in the theatre [chuckle].
  • I wasn't an actor.
  • I wasn't trying, I didn't like the theatre for that.
  • I like the theatre for the sense of community.
  • And if I look back on it, I think, yes, people complain about cliques.
  • And when you get little mini families, yes, you could say, oh,
  • how am I going to be part of that?
  • But I -- yeah, you have to work at it.
  • And that's what we did, I think.
  • Judy Jewinski
    And developed this community?
  • Yes, you develop communities.
  • So, the volunteering -- but the commitment to service, too, is --
  • I really believe because I was so well mentored by Harry Tuyn and Harry Logan,
  • that I owed it to students, too, to help them be as good as they could be.
  • And then Tanya, who was just an amazing person to discover.
  • And Julia Williams, who came to Renison in 2004, and took on the credit side of courses.
  • So we split the English Language Institute in 2004 into sort of non-credit
  • or continuing education, and credit, the courses that counted towards a degree.
  • And, yeah, that kind of -- working with people like that.
  • When I retired, I had a couple of the younger people at the English Language Institute come
  • up to me and say thank you, you gave me my job, and I love it here.
  • And I almost, actually, I get tears in my eyes when I think of how emotional
  • that was for me to think oh gosh, yes.
  • And then when I think of the students.
  • So, the last course I taught was an Applied English grammar course to fourth year students
  • who wanted to be English teachers or professors.
  • There were only five in the class because it was such a hard course, such a hard course.
  • They said this is the hardest course I've ever had at this university.
  • I said no, it's just grammar [chuckle].
  • But if you don't know it, it's like a language.
  • If you haven't learnt it when you're little, it's really hard when you're 20-years-old
  • and somebody says oh, here's something brand new.
  • Anne Millar
    Yes, it is like learning a Language, I like that you say that.
  • Yes.
  • Judy Jewinski
    And those students were so wonderful.
  • I loved teaching them, but I appreciated how hard it was for them.
  • And I thought, isn't that funny, because, you know, when I was 15, I said to a teacher, oh,
  • we don't have relative pronouns, hahaha [chuckle].
  • And there I was teaching relative pronouns to this fourth year class and they were saying oh,
  • wow, I always knew what they were, but I never knew what they did [chuckle].
  • So full circle there.
  • Anne Millar
    Yes I guess to end, I kind of would like to discuss this project in a way,
  • and just how important you think stories such as yours are to be to be recorded and to be told.
  • When I'm listening to your story, I'm struck by how important it is that we record
  • and preserve stories of people at the University of Waterloo,
  • and specifically as well at Renison University College.
  • I'm curious as to your take on that, and how important you believe it is
  • that we have a record of the stories of the individuals who make up these communities?
  • Judy Jewinski
    I think it's particularly important because a community is made up of individuals, of course.
  • And hearing how things started is really important for anyone.
  • History was never a favourite subject of mine, but I like historians very much.
  • And I think they do important work because we need to know where things came from.
  • And we need to know what was before us.
  • Recording -- A recording like this reminds you that yes, there was a beginning to things.
  • There was a time that Waterloo wasn't even a university, right?
  • And how did we get to the prominence that we enjoy now?
  • where did all that come from?
  • Well, it came from a lot of individual people working together, and putting in a lot of hours,
  • in some cases, for the greater good.
  • Well, that's a little altruistic, I guess, but I think that's important.
  • And it's important for people to hear that.
  • And stories, a favourite English class of mine, Professor Rota Lister who was a dramaturge,
  • told us the story of Romeo and Juliet in her Shakespeare class.
  • She told it as a story, and it was a Friday afternoon.
  • And we all.
  • "Everybody knows Romeo and Juliet."
  • But the way she told it was just utterly, utterly unforgettable.
  • Anne Millar
    Like captivating.
  • Judy Jewinski
    I have never forgotten that afternoon.
  • And that's what stories do.
  • They can capture the imagination, and say oh, hey, I think that's why it's important.
  • Anne Millar
    Thank you so very much.
  • I love that thought to end on.
  • Judy Jewinski
    Oh, I'm glad.
  • Anne Millar
    I appreciate you speaking with me today.
  • Judy Jewinski
    Well, thank you.
  • It's been really lovely.
  • Anne Millar
    Oh, good.
  • Thank you so much.