Home » University of Waterloo Archives Digital Library Collections » University of Waterloo Oral Histories » The University of Waterloo Oral History Pilot » Interview with Anita Layton

Interview with Anita Layton

  • Anne Millar
    It is September 20th, 2022. This is an interview with Anita Layton for the Oral History Hub Pilot Project. The interviewer is Anne Miller. Hello, Dr. Layton, Anita. It's nice to speak with you today. Thank you so much for joining me.
  • Anita Layton
    Oh, thank you for having me.
  • Anne Millar
    So I'd love to kind of dive right in and ask you some questions about your early childhood and family life and growing up. So I know you were born in Hong Kong. And you grew up in Hong Kong as well.
  • Anita Layton
    I did, yes.
  • Anne Millar
    Yes. So what was it like growing up there?
  • Anita Layton
    I don't remember. As you know, at my age, that's many, many decades ago. I would say I had a really great childhood. My parents loved me. My dad was a high school math teacher. And my mom stayed home and took care of me and my sister and then much later on my brother as well. So they are -- they were great. And so what may be interesting to you -- okay. So the school that I went to was the same as the one that my father taught in. So the school is not like the ones we have here. That particular school is really one school from kindergarten all the way up to high school. So you're going to spend like your first 17 years there. And that's where I went. So I remember the kindergarten interview. That might seem a little full of myself.
  • But here's the story. So you got -- you had to be interviewed to be admitted into kindergarten, the child, the three-year-old child. I forgot how old that is. There are two years of kindergarten, so you can backtrack. Or maybe around three. I think three is right. So I forgot what the questions were, but I remember one that I answered wrong. So the interviewer, the teacher, asked me -- they showed me a picture of the bird and say, "Do birds sing?" I said no because they chirp. They don't sing. But then I was marked wrong. So I thought, I mean, come on. But I was too young to argue with them. And then I did get admitted. So I started kindergarten there. And then I was in elementary school, which -- and it is a British colony. So it is primary school and secondary school. So I was in primary school. I was in secondary school. So my dad was the head of the secondary school math -- I don't know -- program. And I'm not sure it was a program, but he looked after all the math classes in the secondary school.
  • So there will be staff functions for the teachers, secondary school teachers during Chinese New Year, autumn festival, and things like that. And then they would bring their family. So I remember as a little girl, I would go to these things with my dad and maybe my sister and my mom. And then his colleagues would pat me on the hand and say, "Oh, Anita, you're so smart. You'll grow up to be -- do math, like math teacher, just like your father." And I thought that was the last thing I'll ever do. Are you kidding me? I was very rebellious, so I made up my mind not to go into math from a very early age. And it didn't work out. But that's another story.
  • Anne Millar
    I understand that you were quite good at math, though, from a young age. And were you -- would you say you excelled in general in your studies?
  • Anita Layton
    I think that was expected of me.
  • Anne Millar
    Was there a connection between your father being a math teacher in terms of, like, did he do problems with you on the side? Was it something?
  • Anita Layton
    Definitely. My dad taught me several grades ahead. So in Hong Kong, you cannot jump grades. You cannot skip grades like you do here. But he definitely taught me several grades ahead of whatever grades I was in. Yeah. So math classes involved sitting down and look interested. Very boring. Yeah.
  • Anne Millar
    Oh, wow. And can I ask what professions your siblings pursued?
  • Anita Layton
    So I have a sister who's one year and a half younger than me. So she's an elementary school teacher. She's like the best sister you can have. Yeah.
  • Anne Millar
    Oh, wow. That's amazing. Your mother -- did your mother work outside the home?
  • Anita Layton
    She was a kindergarten schoolteacher before I was born. And then she took care of us. Very devoted. She's devoted in a way that I don't think that I can ever be. No seriously, she's really devoted to her children. And, like, you know, best grandmother you can have, too.
  • Anne Millar
    Oh, lovely. Lovely. So you had these two teachers kind of then as parents. So they certainly would have encouraged education and stressed its importance.
  • Anita Layton
    Yeah, yeah, definitely. Definitely.
  • Anne Millar
    In your secondary school education, other than your father's influence, did you have a teacher that was particularly influential?
  • Anita Layton
    I don't remember. I mean, I liked them a lot. I like most people. So I had lots of subjects. Like, physics, chemistry, biology, they're separate subjects. There's math. There is something called additional math, which is harder math. There's English. There's Chinese. There's actually religious study. It is a Methodist school, believe it or not. So not being Christian, I know everything about the Bible. There's home economics. Yeah, there's lots of things, different things.
  • Anne Millar
    Great. Can --
  • Anita Layton
    And sports. There's physical education. I like sports, too.
  • Anne Millar
    You played sports as well? That's great. And I'm sure it complements your education as well, right, when you have athletics?
  • Anita Layton
    I guess. But it was pretty demanding. So my school was really, really good in sports. Some of the students -- actually not me, definitely -- actually represented Hong Kong in, I don't know, some international competitions. So there are people at that level. When I was younger, I was in the swimming team. And then later on, I ran cross country and track.
  • Anne Millar
    Oh, wow. Do you think those sports that -- participation in athletics made you a better scholar? Do you think there's a relationship at all?
  • Anita Layton
    Not really. It made me healthier, I guess. And I've been very healthy my whole life. I'm not sure I earned it. Maybe just genetics. I don't know. I don't know what makes people better scholar. You have to have an alternative universe where you don't have that.
  • Anne Millar
    That's true. It's hard to know sometimes. Can I jump ahead to your education and how you came to North America?
  • Anita Layton
    Sure. So -- okay. So my father has always wanted to do a PhD overseas. That's always what he wanted. But he didn't. He got a job after he got his bachelor's degree because his family was poor. So his firstborn, who is me, is going to live that dream. Yes, that's really what it is. So I mean, I did my undergrad at Duke, which is very, very expensive. My father didn't have family money, as I just said. And he was a schoolteacher. No schoolteacher earns a lot of money. So he basically spent every single penny he has on my education, because, I mean, you can't get a -- you can't get a merit scholarship as an international student. There's no such thing. You pay full tuition. And I went to Duke, a private institution in the US. That's really, really expensive. So that's what he did. So I mean, I could have stayed in Hong Kong. But he decided to send me abroad because he couldn't.
  • So that's where I went. He picked the school. And as I was like, I didn't care . At 18 -- I was 18. I would go anywhere. I have no fear. So that's what happened. At Duke, it was interesting because at the time -- Duke now has a big chunk of international students. In my year, there were exactly 32 international students, including the English and the Canadians. So everybody else was American. So I mean, I score very good in TOEFL. But I had no idea what people were talking about in the first semester, because, like, you grew up in Hong Kong. Yeah, I learnt English all my life, but you learn from non-native speakers. And there is this thing called propagation of errors. And also, there is the difference between British and American English, which kind of threw me off a little bit, right? Like, it's truck, not lorry, right? Seven o'clock, not seven o'clock. And then aluminum and aluminum really threw me off for a long time.
  • So the first semester, I had a very hard time understanding what people were saying. But I was 18. And there was no -- I mean, you can only speak English, right? So that's the best way to learn. So I was totally immersed. I was young enough. No problems. Second semester, I felt like just everybody else. So that's what happened. And it helped that the classes I took I already had them before. So I find the courses rather basic, at least for the first year. So I didn't understand aluminum, but just physics, come on, I had physics -- this physics two years ago. So the classes weren't too hard for me. And so yeah -- so I wanted to do -- so like I said, I decided not to do math because that's what everybody told me I should do. So I thought, oh, what do I like? Physics. Physics sounds good. You can understand the origin of the universe, the secrets of the universe. Well, I didn't realize that I'm very clumsy, so I cannot do experiments at all. Like just the simplest experiment, it will totally fail.
  • I have no idea why it did. So I had to partner with somebody who can actually do the hand-on things -- hands-on things. And I will write out the analysis. So I did get a physics degree, but I didn't get a bachelor of science. I got a bachelor of arts, which doesn't have that many labs because there's so many times you can hook up with somebody, and they do the work for you. So I decided that, okay, let's do computer science. You can write code, and if anything is wrong, there is no smell, there is no explosion. Nobody has to know. It's awesome. So I did computer science, which is kind of like math, but not exactly. So I got another degree in computer science. And then I graduated from Duke. And you know, hey, let's get a PhD like my dad wanted. So I got a PhD. I went to Toronto. And I got a PhD in computer science.
  • Anita Layton
    Did you know you wanted to go into academia? Was that always your intention?
  • Anne Millar
    Oh, that's what my dad told me I should do.
  • Anita Layton
    You came into your undergrad with that plan in place.
  • Anne Millar
    I think so. I think, like, this has always been like an option. My parents would mention that. So it's always been an option, and it's something that I feel like I'm capable of doing. But I mean, when I was -- so academia -- I mean, getting a PhD does not necessarily imply academia. Right? So the option is getting PhD is good. Getting PhD is good. That doesn't seem too hard. But then when I was in grad school, I actually also got a fulltime job as a software consultant for a while, for a year or two, I think. Can't remember. So that would be industry, right? And that's when I decide, okay, what do I want? I believe in getting the -- in all the information before making your choices. When I was older, when I was younger, I didn't care. So I did try industry for a while. I thought that was interesting because people were very smart. The problems were interesting. But you don't get to choose what you work on, unlike my job now.
  • So I decided that, well, I want an academia job. So here I am.
  • Anne Millar
    Wow. Can I ask why the University of Toronto?
  • Anita Layton
    Oh, for PhD?
  • Anne Millar
    Yes. I'm sure you had other opportunities.
  • Anita Layton
    It's a very good school. Also, at that time, my parents just moved from Hong Kong to Toronto. Not Toronto -- Richmond Hill. So I wanted to be closer to them. So that's the area I want to be. And Toronto was the best one.
  • Anne Millar
    Yes. Amazing. Did you have any professors that were mentors to you during your graduate studies?
  • Anita Layton
    I have the official mentor. So I have my supervisor. He's great. I have two. So Ken Jackson and Christina Christara. So they are -- I learnt a lot from them science wise. And I also learnt from Ken how to be a mentor. Well, I'm still aspiring to be him. I'm still learning how.
  • Anne Millar
    In what way did he teach you how to be a mentor? What would have stood out to you?
  • Anita Layton
    Ken is very patient. Let's see. What do I like about Ken? I mean, Ken is, like, extremely patient, which is something I'm trying to learn. And he -- when you talk to him, you know that he's listening to you. And he will point out your mistakes, but in the most gentle way. And he's also very good at what he does. But there was no -- I mean, he -- and he's both very humble. But you also know that he is good at what he does. So that kind of balance is very difficult to strike.
  • Anne Millar
    Was he, would you say, as equally as passionate about what he did as you were?
  • Anita Layton
    Oh, he's very passionate. I remember, like, when I was a grad student -- like when you're a young grad student, when you go to a conference, you just go everywhere, go to all the sessions. And Ken is the same way. We will hop to this session and then this talk and then this other talk all the time, like the whole day. And I just take for granted that's what all people do. And I realize it's not true. When you get to be more senior, you don't bother with that. But Ken has this thing about just retaining the curiosity or the energy that you'll find more in grad students.
  • Anne Millar
    I like that, retaining the curiosity. That's very powerful. Would you describe a bit your career progression? So you finished your PhD, and you did two postdoctoral fellowships. How did you kind of land that first position at Duke?
  • Anita Layton
    So I got my first postdoc, which is at the National Centre of Atmospheric Research, because it's related to my doctoral research. So my doctoral research has to do with developing computational methods that can be applied to numerical weather prediction. And that's what the Colorado National Centre for Atmospheric Research is about. I didn't stay there very long because just around the time I got my PhD, I also got married. My husband was a Duke math professor. So he's in North -- he was in North Carolina. So I was in Colorado. And we're trying to get to the same place. So I picked up the second postdoc, which is at University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. So that is not numerical weather prediction, but numerical methods for differential equations. So I became a postdoc at UNC Chapel Hill, which is like 10 miles or so from Duke.
  • So I was trying to solve a two-body problem, which you will hear a lot for women in academia. So when that's about to finish, I want a real job. So we negotiated a tenure track position for me at Duke Math. So that's how I ended up at Duke as a faculty person.
  • Anita Layton
    Wow. Wow. And you must have been thrilled then to join Duke.
  • Anne Millar
    Well, yes and no. I mean, as a trailing spouse, you have some sort of mixed feelings about it. Right? So I mean, this is -- I was happy. I mean, it's a good department. And it solved my two-body problem. But sometimes you want people to want you for you, not want you for your spouse. It worked out really well for me. I did very well at Duke. But at the time, I mean, as a young person, you have to earn -- you have to somehow build your confidence.
  • Anita Layton
    Did you feel like you had -- oh, I'm sorry.
  • Anne Millar
    Do I feel like I have impostor syndrome or what? I would have told you, yes.
  • Anita Layton
    Or something more to prove, maybe, at the time.
  • Anne Millar
    Oh, definitely. It's not a feeling. It's a fact. I mean, if someone hire you because of your husband, yeah, surely you had more to prove.
  • Anita Layton
    Yes. Yes. Do you think that made you work harder? Do you think that made it maybe harder on you as a young academic?
  • Anne Millar
    I don't know. I always work very hard. So it's really for myself. I also didn't worry a lot. It is what it is, right? So I don't know how it affected me. Good question. I think I really honestly don't remember. It might -- so I got advice, like, from other Duke colleagues that okay, so you don't want to work in a field that's too similar to your husband, who's also in math biology. Avoid that at all costs and do something else. As you can tell from my early decision not to join -- do math, I'm not a person who listens. So I didn't listen to that at all. Yeah, so I mean, I understand the challenges that I would face as a trailing spouse. But I also wanted to chart my own course. I mean, I'm in academia because I wanted to do what I did. So I still pursue that.
  • I didn't really change my direction because of how I was hired. But it all worked out. So it was good.
  • Anne Millar
    Yes. So I know you've talked a lot about liking fluid and kind of the move from what your PhD research was focussed on to what you did as a young academic. You've talked about kind of the connection there. Would you speak to that a little bit?
  • Anita Layton
    Connection? What again, sorry?
  • Anne Millar
    Just how your research has evolved over the course of your career?
  • Anita Layton
    Oh, okay. So when I was a PhD student, I wanted to do something that's related to physics, you know, computer science and also physics because I do like physics, the movement part but not the -- I don't like the electronic and electrical part. That doesn't appeal to me. So I decided, okay, well, let's do something that has to do with numerical weather prediction. That's physics but then you build a model, and you use computers to solve the model equations. So that's perfect. So my supervisors, two of them, they have the expertise that can guide me. So I really like what I did for my doctoral research. So after that, I got my first postdoc that's related. The second one isn't so much. But then I realized, okay, well, I don't have a lot of weather people around Duke. So collaboration or working with people is a little harder, so let's do something else.
  • So I decided that, well, there's fluid in our body as well. So let's do blood flow, like flow in the kidney. So that's how I picked it up. I worked on the kidney for a while.
  • Anita Layton
    Your work on the kidney has been amazing. And you said you think it's one of the best organs, which I thought was interesting.
  • Anne Millar
    It's my favourite organ. It does a lot of work and has so much complexity, so much we don't understand. It's fun. I like it.
  • Anita Layton
    So you were at Duke then for 14 years?
  • Anne Millar
    Fourteen, 15 years.
  • Anita Layton
    And then Waterloo recruited you. Can you talk a bit about the decision to accept the position at Waterloo and that move?
  • Anne Millar
    Yeah. So around that time, it was the 150th birthday of Canada. So the Canadian government allocated some money to pursue 20-some international scholars, give them the distinction of Canada 150 Research Chair. So each of us got a chunk of money, and we got a shiny little title. So that sounds good. But then if the same thing is in another country, I wouldn't even consider it. I came here -- also another part is that's where my parents are. They live in Richmond Hill. So instead of having to drive 15 hours from North Carolina to Richmond Hill, now it's, what, at most two hours. Would have been one and a half if 401 wasn't so busy. It took me an hour and 14 minutes if it was at night, 3am. But it's typically more like two hours. So I can see them a lot more often.
  • I still don't see them as much as I want to because I travel way too much. But being closer to my parents became -- has become more important after I have my own children, because they -- I mean, they love their grandparents. But how much can you really love somebody that you see twice a year? Okay. Let's be realistic, right? You don't really have some -- a lot to share. At my age, parents won't be around forever. So you have to be realistic about how many more years they have left. So I'm much closer to them now, which I really like. Honestly, it didn't matter to me so much 15 years ago, being close to family. It's different. I mean, you grow up and things change. Your priorities change, I think. And I know Waterloo -- actually, honestly, like, I had a lot of pleasant surprises after I came here. I mean, like, rarely you go to a place and yes you like it more. And actually, I do with Waterloo. So I'm very happy I came here.
  • Anne Millar
    Could you give me an example of one of the surprises?
  • Anita Layton
    Sure. So support. Support is my surprises. So my faculty, Faculty of Math, gave me tremendous support. A lot of things that I want or I didn't know I want, I got. So it was really nice. And then I find, in general, the university have very good support for, like, grant writing. There are many different types -- like, level of reviews that faculty members get when they write a grant, which I couldn't even imagine when I was at Duke or any -- actually, most US institutions don't give you that. When I was in the US, I spent a lot of time writing grants. I write lots of grant. But rarely did anybody else read it. Your collaborator read it, maybe, and maybe some of the reviewers, they did. And that's it. Here, there are actually professionals that would read it for you. And in fact, this is the NSERC Discovery Week. So as the Associate Dean for Research in math, I am totally overwhelmed by this review.
  • So we do a lot of -- we do give faculty members a lot of support. And I don't think people appreciate it unless you have worked outside of Canada.
  • Anita Layton
    Yes. I was going to lead into that because you have done a lot of work supporting your colleagues and their applications, like, their grant writing.
  • Anne Millar
    I love that. I love that. I really love my job as Associate Dean for Research.
  • Anita Layton
    That was a lot to take on when you came to a new university.
  • Anne Millar
    Yes and no. I mean, I've always had a big admin job on the side. I have never not had one since my second year as an assistant, this little assistant professor. So yeah, it seems to be a big job. But there's also good staff around me. Honestly, it's no big deal. I honestly don't know what to do with myself if I'm just a faculty member.
  • Anita Layton
    Oh, wow. So that leads me -- I'm going to jump ahead a little bit. But you seem to be almost this epitome of an interdisciplinary scholar, like the ideal, what we would look for. And it seems like that transcends just your research. It also moves into your career as a whole. You kind of have your foot in all these different areas. And I know you've been asked the question before, but how are you able to keep on top of so many different fields?
  • Anne Millar
    It's necessary for me. If you have some ADHD tendency, which will mean you cannot focus on something more than 30 minutes, what do you do? You can just not accomplish anything, or you do what I do, which I will call productive procrastination. Seriously, when you get tired of stuff, then you move on to the next. So that's how I -- how my day runs. So I will work on something and either because of a meeting that I need to do I switch, or I get tired of it, and I do something else. So that's how I keep a lot of things going. Sometimes, especially if I happen to drop a ball then I get mad at myself, but usually, it doesn't happen. And I also pick what I do rather judiciously. I don't just agree to everything. I agree to do the Associate Dean for Research because I find it interesting and because the faculty give me the support I need to accomplish something.
  • Like I said -- I did say, you know, I typically have an admin job on the side. And because I have done it for so many years, I know what I want. I'm not interested in just sitting in the office and making sure things run. I like to change things. I like to go into an office and see what can -- how can things be done better? And usually, when you need to change things, you need resources. And if who I work for is willing to provide the resources, great. If not, then we can find something else that I can do.
  • Anne Millar
    Have you felt supported, then, at Waterloo in getting the resources you need?
  • Anita Layton
    Sure. Otherwise, you won't be talking to me here. I do. I'm very happy working here. I'm happy with my faculty. I'm happy working with the Office of Research. There are a lot of offices here that are -- I mean, that are really doing good things.
  • Anne Millar
    Oh, wow. Including the work that you're doing because -- I'd love to talk a little bit more about your research because you've spoken about how it's changed, how you get to prioritize things now that excite you and that you're passionate about. And it's -- your work has been described as really work for the social good. So can you describe that a little bit how just the freedom that you have as an established academic has given you the opportunity, perhaps, to explore areas that really matter?
  • Anita Layton
    Yeah. So I mean, this is exactly what I want, why I am in academia, because I can do what I want to do. So I'm in health research because that's what I care about. I mean, if you get a wish from the genie that you just released from a bottle, like, what would you want? Like, if you ask me, I will say I want people that I care about to be healthy. That's what I will ask for. Right? If money can buy health, I'll totally happily kiss goodbye to every single penny I own. Right? But, you know, I have no magic genie, and money can't buy health. So I do the next best thing I possibly can, which is to go into health research. Now as I said earlier, I'm incredibly clumsy. So I can't really do animal experiments, wet lab experiment or be the doctor that my parents thought I can also get into.
  • My hands shake, okay? I cannot operate on somebody. So I do what I know how to do, which is computational modelling and drug simulation. And I look around and I thought about, okay, so what can I do to help people? So I love the kidney, my favourite organ. So I'm interested in chronic kidney disease. It affects, if we talk about Canada, somewhere between 1.3 to 3 million people. That's a lot of people. So what about chronic kidney disease? There's so many different things to study, right? Well, I also care about gender equity and men and women differences. So I combined the two. And I've decided to look at sex differences in medicine. There are actually major sex differences. Women before menopause are somewhat protected against kidney disease, but after menopause, fair game. Right? So there is some hormonal changes that affect our overall health.
  • It's not just kidney disease. Cardiovascular disease as well. Right? So hypertension, high blood pressure affect more men than women before menopause. After that, again, fair game. So we lose that advantage somehow. So what is it about -- when we're younger, what makes us somewhat protected against kidney disease, cardiovascular, which are related because kidney is -- plays a big role in blood pressure regulation? So what is it about us, right, you that protect you from these diseases? And it's an important question, not just basic scientific curiosity, because if you know what protects somebody, then that gives you insight into developing better therapies for both sexes. So, you know, this is my big overall ambition to understand sex differences and see how we can translate that to therapy. It's not just sex difference that I'm interested in. I'm interested also in race differences.
  • It's a little harder to do. Race difference is harder because sex difference, you can start with animal study, because with animal, you can do all kinds of experiment on them. Human is mostly observational, so you don't have nearly as much data in human than in like a rat. Right? You can do rat experiment. And you can do sex differences in rat, which you also see. Male rat, female rat, they all -- the female protected against kidney disease, male rat not. So you see the same sex difference. And now you can do whatever you want to the rat. Right? So I can -- I learn a lot about sex differences from the rat experiment. Race is much harder, right? What is a black rat and a white rat? Caucasian rat, Latino rat, Chinese rat don't have the same -- you can’t map them to rat. So you have to do it directly on people, and you have a lot less data. But it's really important, race difference.
  • Like, Black people are more prone to high blood pressure. Why is that? What is it about their body? Right? So I'm very interested, and it's a much harder question. And then there is sexless gender, lifestyle, nonbinary. So what is that? Again, there is no rat equivalent, but it's equally important. So those are the things that excite me. Those are the things that I find, you know, if we really understand more, it can have a lot of impact on society.
  • Anne Millar
    Wow. And my guess would be then if you're looking at race, that would take a very large study as well.
  • Anita Layton
    Yeah. Well, a lot of human study, I mean, trials are large anyway. Right? Yeah. So I mean, at least I know -- like, I'm glad that at least these days compared to maybe 20, 30 years ago, people -- at least some people -- at least some people in the biomedical community, medical community are recognizing that sex should be a factor. Just a couple of decades ago, like, for instance, in the -- was when was that? I think in the '80s, maybe the '90s. I forgot when that was. There was a really big study, a clinical trial, at Harvard that studied the effect of aspirin on cardiovascular health. That's really important. Right? A painkiller, aspirin, a lot of people take it. How does it affect your heart? It's called physician study, physicians health study or something. And it involved 22,000 participants. Huge. How many women do you think there was? Zero. Zilch. Nada. Right? So I think in the past, the general belief is that whatever you learn from men can simply extrapolate to women, which is true in certain -- to a certain extent because we are all human beings.
  • But there are, like, sex differences in every single one of our organs, right? Just the simplest thing. The average American man is, what, 200 pounds. Average American woman is 170. I weigh 110, so if you give me the drug of an average American man, it will be twice my weight, and that will be overdose for you. And it's not just a weight. Women for the same weight has more fat content than men. So if a drug is soluble in fat, then it will stay in my body longer. So there was all this -- so this is just about metabolizing the drug. The reaction to drugs are always similar, but there are subtle differences. So yeah, it's not gigantic difference. It cures you but kills this other person. It's not that. It's not night and day. But there are like quantitatively some difference between them. And if there are like 50 different drugs that I can take for high blood pressure, it will be nice if you prescribe the best one for men and then this other one, which would be better for women.
  • Just, like, bear things in mind so you understand what is needed. Things are getting better. I think a few years ago, NHA in the States and then our funding agency as well required that sex be looked at or considered as a variable. If you do animal experiments, then you should include both male and female rats, unless there is scientific justification for excluding one. Okay. You're doing penile cancer. Okay. There is no female. Okay. I understand that. Right? But you can't just exclude one sex because it's cheaper. But a lot of times, that was the reason. And then there's also the believe that females, animals, humans, we have menstrual cycles. So our physiology actually changes over the month, which is true. Right? My weight can fluctuate by five pounds without me on a diet. I never go on a diet. But just because of water retention, hormonal changes, it will just change. Five pounds is a big fraction of my weight.
  • But so what? Like, that's not a good reason for ignoring 50% of the population. And your understanding how our physiology changes over the month, it's also important. Right? I'll argue that you should study that. So yeah, that's what excites me.
  • Anita Layton
    Who led the way in making it that you had to -- that sex difference had to be considered?
  • Anne Millar
    Who led the way?
  • Anita Layton
    What scholars were kind of fighting for that? Like, I know, you wrote a Globe and Mail opinion piece citing the importance of including sex difference. Were you kind of one of those pioneers to say we really need to consider this?
  • Anne Millar
    I wish I were, but I'm sure I was not. Because in the States, it was like maybe 2015 or 2014, like mid-2010s. Right? I think I was too young to have that kind of impact. And a lot of people, like, true trailblazer work for years probably started before I got my PhD, right? These things don't take place overnight. It's a long, long struggle. There were a lot of people publishing, oh, this is not right, like way before, much earlier.
  • Anita Layton
    And mostly in the medical fields, or what field has pioneered that?
  • Anne Millar
    Medical field, biomedical, biology. I think medical would have a bigger voice because the public understands it better. Sometimes it's about getting your constituency or something. I don't know. Maybe somebody hired lobbyists. That will be the easiest way. But scientists don't have the money.
  • Anita Layton
    Yes. You mentioned diversity. And I'd love if you would speak to the diversity specifically at Waterloo, just what your experience has been about how diverse the campus is, how diverse the faculty are. I know you have said that your team is more diverse than you could have ever kind of hoped for.
  • Anne Millar
    So it's a different level. I mean, like our students do come -- the undergrads do came from a lot of different countries with different backgrounds. Faculty, we also have people from different countries and backgrounds. But there are certain groups that are much less represented than the rest, right? So I think a few months ago, and maybe still ongoing, like Waterloo had the Black Excellence Faculty Hires Initiative, and also Indigenous Faculty Hires Initiative, because we don't have many Black faculty members, especially in math and engineering. There are some, but really not a whole lot, right? Indigenous faculty members is the same. So there are many -- I will say there are ways that we can improve. It is not going to be easy because I feel like diversity is the easiest box you can check.
  • Diversity is just about hiring somebody. That's easy. But it's after you hire a faculty member, for instance. So a student -- okay, you recruited somebody. We recruited a bunch of, I don't know, Indigenous students. How do you make sure they thrive? How do you make sure they're happy? How do you make sure they grow and achieve the best they can? That is hard. Diversity is really so easy. If you want to hire somebody, give them lots of money. There you go, right? There's a good chance you'll succeed. But are they going to be happy after you hire them? So I think focussing on hiring is a wonderful first step. But then the hard work comes to make sure that the new people you hired to improve the diversity actually do well.
  • Anne Millar
    What do they need to do well, in your opinion? What can the University of Waterloo implement after that initial hire?
  • Anita Layton
    That is a very good question that I do not have the wonderful answer to. Supportive environment, right? So I mean, you have to sit down and ask yourself honestly, as Waterloo leadership, why don't you have a lot of Black faculty and Indigenous faculty? Why is that? Right? You lost some of them. You don't have a lot. What is the reason? What is the reason that you don't have -- we don't have any at all? Because you don't find them? What is the reason that you don't hire them? Okay. Until now, you have no interest. Why is that? So if you cannot answer -- I mean, you have to have an honest answer. And then you can figure out how to address them. I mean, if you are -- I mean, just to be honest, right, if you're a little assistant professor, a young assistant professor, you're hired under a special initiative. That means people look at you that way forever. Just like me, I was a spousal hire. I mean, I learnt to be full of myself and grow my confidence. It was not easy. And in some sense, a spousal hire may not be -- may not face as much bias as someone with a skin colour that you can just tell.
  • Right? So I'm a woman. A bunch of people know I was hired because of my husband, not necessarily everybody. But even if they do, I think -- I can imagine people feeling like, okay, this hire has to go to this special group so I can hire this other -- these people that I would prefer. Right? And I think that kind of feeling or unhappiness tends to be stronger than maybe looking at a spousal hire. I don't know. It's just my personal experience. So how do you make sure that these young people -- there's a difference between hiring a senior person from a group, but they are a lot more expensive. How do you make sure a young person who comes in without a network, because we don't have a lot of people from the same background, without a supportive network, without people that they can talk to and possibly having a target at their back? I should be honest about it.
  • Right? How do you make sure they thrive? If I knew the answer, I would have written a book. I don't know. There's lots of way, but you just have to be very thoughtful.
  • Anne Millar
    Do you think the University of Waterloo is kind of taking an active enough role and using and supporting --
  • Anita Layton
    We'll see. We'll see. We'll see. We'll see. We'll see how the hires turn out in three, five -- three, four, five, six years. It also depends on the person. Some people need fewer resources. Some people may need more support.
  • Anne Millar
    Yes. So they do have to -- it does have to be tailored to each case. And in terms of kind of like policy initiatives, do you think the university is doing enough?
  • Anita Layton
    I think there are a lot of people with very good intentions. And there are a lot that have been done that I didn't see a few years ago. So I think the direction is good.
  • Anne Millar
    Great. So you saw some strong leadership there.
  • Anita Layton
    Yeah. I think Charmaine [Dean] has done a lot for EDI, which I really admire. I mean, there are -- I mean, we do have senior leadership who truly believe in EDI. I mean, I work with a lot of deans and vice presidents, whatever name you have. I work with a lot of them at Duke and here. There are different levels of support for diversity. There's this level where, okay, I need -- I want to run this event for diversity. Can you give me some money? Rarely do they say no because I'm kind of persistent. But most of the time, they give me some money and run away. That's when I was at Duke, not here. Okay. Just go away and do your thing. That is support. But then what I get, say, from Charmaine or my dean is that they actually came up with ideas because they want to. Like, I remember, like, getting emails from Charmaine in the middle of the night because he came across this article and thought will share with me.
  • Right? That was like a very refreshing experience for me because in my life, so far, up till then, it's always been me coming with this idea and make sure that, okay, give me the support I need, or I'm not going to stop, that sort of thing. So I think it's really wonderful to work with leadership that share my passion. Yes. And I can say the same thing about my faculty dean, Mark [Giesbrecht]. So he's also, like, truly supportive. You don't have to be a woman or a minority to be supportive of EDI. I mean, that's often the belief, but no, it's not. Like, I've seen women who are not supportive of gender diversity. We get all kinds. So I get lots of allies among white men as well. So I have my support from a lot of people here. But there's also a lot more work to do.
  • Anita Layton
    Yes, there is. There is. Your ability to kind of forge these connections, it's in your research, and it seems to be everywhere in your career. You've been able to do something that some people can't do. Is that natural to you to make connections, to build these relationships?
  • Anne Millar
    No, it's learnt. No, it's not. My nature is not to talk to people and be very antisocial. At some point in my life, I realized that that is not very productive. So I learnt to talk to people and get them to work with me. It's not that hard. Like, you have not seen my antisocialness. I have like -- I was like the most awkward and shy teenager you have ever met. Yes, I was. I had no friends. But honestly, if Anita can learn, so can anybody else.
  • Anita Layton
    That's very inspiring.
  • Anne Millar
    What I realized is that if you go up to somebody and express a desire to work with them, sometimes people say no, but they are never, ever truly upset by it. They’re always get a little flattered. So the no is not that bad. So you just have to have tough skin and ask.
  • Anita Layton
    Just returning to diversity quickly, in terms of gender diversity within your own field, what improvements have you seen? Or where do you think we need to head?
  • Anne Millar
    So I see a lot more organizations that work towards gender diversity than in the old days. Faculty of Math, we have women in computer science, which has been around for a long time. And my CS colleagues did a wonderful job there. And then there's women in math. I also admire things that they do. I am part of it. But mostly, I'm their cheerleader. So there's this play -- what's it called? I forgot the name of it. But they do a lot of events at different levels. So for students, for faculty members. I really, really admire what they do. So there are a lot of things going on. And people recognize the importance of it. Do we -- have we attained to equity? Of course not. Right? So there's still work to do. But I think people are a lot more comfortable talking about it. And at least in Waterloo, I see an increasing amount of support for gender equity or racial equity.
  • So I'm very -- I'm very optimistic.
  • Anne Millar
    I think -- is the play you're talking about the one about the MIT student?
  • Anita Layton
    Yeah, that one. It's Saturday, right? There's a panel discussion after that. And I'm participating in the panel. So I'm really looking forward to it.
  • Anne Millar
    Oh, good. That's amazing. I'd love to know -- kind of 2022 seems to be a big year for you. You were nominated for -- so you've received a number of awards. What does that recognition mean to you? So to be a Fellow of the Royal Society of Canada and there's the Canadian Mathematical Society as well. So --
  • Anita Layton
    I'm happy. I'm just happy. So the Canadian Math Society, I think my first thought was, oh, I'm a real mathematician now. That was my first thought. I was at a meeting in Charlottesville when the email came. Oh, interesting. I'm a math person. That's what I thought. So a lot of colleagues supported me in the nomination and working with me, so I really appreciate that. I know people always say that, but I truly believe that the honour doesn't belong to just me. I really believe that. It's not some BS that you're supposed to say. I believe it belongs to also to like my hardworking trainees, my grad students and people who work with me. I mean, my grad students do the actual hard work of a lot of my research projects. And honestly, like for the Royal Society of Canada fellowship or even the Canadian Math Society fellowship, without the university support, the faculty support -- they gave me so much support -- it will never have happened.
  • Even the nomination, right? I think the faculty is very good at supporting faculty nominations. I mean, my office is responsible for that now. But I see the work that my staff put in putting together a nomination, and I think they deserve a lot of credit as well.
  • Anita Layton
    Yes. How many hours would that take, would you say, to put together a nomination application?
  • Anne Millar
    It depends. For the staff, it depends on the material that the nominee gives them. I often write a lot of drafts for them that I need. But I like writing. So I don't mind. Some people don't like writing. So it depends.
  • Anita Layton
    Yes. Well, that's a good skill in terms of communicating your research and your interests.
  • Anne Millar
    I like communication.
  • Anita Layton
    I like communication.
  • Anne Millar
    I learnt. This is something I picked up. It's something I picked up. So to communicate, you need to -- you need to see things from the other person's point of view. That didn't come quite naturally to me. It's something I learnt. But again, if I can learn, so can anybody else. I think it's really important because it makes you a much better teacher. It's not just science, right? As a teacher, you also need that. Otherwise you're just listening to yourself talk. What's the point of that?
  • Anita Layton
    So is that what makes you a good teacher, being a good listener?
  • Anne Millar
    I don't know whether I'm good teacher. I haven't taught since 2018, fall term. I miss that. But I haven't taught for a long time. So maybe I forgot how. The only person I get to teach, besides my grad student, is my daughter, and I cannot teach her. That never worked out.
  • Anita Layton
    What would keep you at Waterloo, or what will keep you at Waterloo?
  • Anne Millar
    I think job -- so I will be here at least for three years because my son is still in high school. That is a factor. So there is a lower bound. Three years is my lower bound that I will be here. I think what will keep anybody at an institution is support and the ability to do what you want or the opportunities to do what you want. To be honest, I got solicitations from recruiting firms all the time. Other universities in Canada or actually overseas as well. I mean, I guess most of us get that. Most of the time, I have no interest. But I think what -- if I ask myself my first reaction to getting a recruiting message is whether that position has the opportunity to make a big difference. That's what's important to me.
  • I've been asked to do the deanship and maybe chairs and stuff, director. If there is a opportunity to make a difference and the resources to support whatever initiative I want to do, that's what I want, especially when I get older. I mean, I don't want to take on a very big admin job at this point because I want enough time for my research. I don't know how I will feel in a few years. And just to be honest, right, I mean, if I look at how I feel about what I want to do five years ago, it's very different from 10 years ago or 15 years ago. So people change. I don't know what I would want to do in five years. Now I know I want admin job like my associate deanship, which makes a difference, but it doesn't eat up all the time. So I can do research. I still write papers. I still work with a lot of grad students. I can do that. I still write a lot of grants. But if I take on a bigger job, there is no chance I can do that. And I won't be happy. At least the Anita in 2022 won't be happy.
  • I don't know how she will feel in five years. So yeah -- so I think right now I am happy at Waterloo because I get to do my research. I have an admin position that I can make a difference. So most days, I'm happy.
  • Anita Layton
    That's good to hear. That's good to hear. There seems to be something at Waterloo that keeps people there. So its ability to retain strong faculty and staff -- and students as well seem to come and stay. Would that be something that you have noticed in your time there that people love Waterloo and want to stay there? Or have you heard kind of other stories? What would the situation be like?
  • Anne Millar
    Some people stay, some people go. Right? There are turnovers among faculty members as well. Staff? I don't know. I think once they become permanent, they stay there. I think the staff do tend to stay. Students, they come back sometimes. Sometimes they don't. I mean, they're supposed to go away and learn somewhere else. I mean, for grad students, for instance, right, I want them to go away so they can learn from somebody else.
  • Anita Layton
    Yeah. So you encourage that, that movement?
  • Anne Millar
    That's the right thing to do. That's typically what supervisors do.
  • Anita Layton
    Yes. That's good. I'd love just some of your thoughts on Waterloo in general. So just what you think makes the University of Waterloo unique, what differentiates it from another institution of higher learning.
  • Anne Millar
    I think the emphasis on mathematics is really unique. We have a huge Faculty of Math. And you don't see, like, Faculty of Math in, I don't know, any or many other universities. So having a lot of -- I mean, I'm basically immersed in everybody that -- with a lot of people that think about math. That's pretty cool, I think. And then we are also trying to grow interdisciplinary research. So the increasing emphasis on interdisciplinary research is also appealing to me, which is not to say that I don't think much of disciplinary research. It's different. I think we need both type. I do interdisciplinary research, but I have a lot of good friends in pure math. And they focus on the discipline. I think that's really cool, too. I'm just not -- that's not what I do. But I do respect. I mean, they prove really, really cool theorems. And their results are -- they're beautiful. And I love that, admiring them.
  • Anita Layton
    What program would you introduce at Waterloo, if you could introduce any program?
  • Anne Millar
    What program would I introduce? I think -- well, maybe I'm biased, but computational medicine or data analysis that is related to health. I mean, we have faculty who work in this area. We have some students who do research, but there isn't a formal -- oh, let me take that back. Maybe some sort of MD PhD. We don't have a medical school, right? But partnering with a medical school, but offer up our expertise, which is in data and computation. So you can train MDs who also have very solid training in data analysis. I think that will be really, really interesting. And an MD PhD, like, with this program, they can be researchers that focus on data analysis, on health data. Or they can just be much better policymakers or medical research or medical, I don't know, researchers or staff that are -- that don't go around saying that I can't do math.
  • I have so many MDs who say that. I don't know what the heck for.
  • Anne Millar
    I'm winding down my questioning. But I'm curious about -- and this is a big question. But the University of Waterloo is looking towards kind of where it will be when it's 100 years old. If you were to cast your thoughts forward to the University of Waterloo's centennial, what would you hope to see?
  • Anita Layton
    Like, in general, where it will sit?
  • Anne Millar
    I guess in any aspect. Would you hope the university has grown? Would you hope that there are certain programs, that its focus remains the same in terms of innovation and, as you said, the emphasis on math?
  • Anita Layton
    So 100 years is a very long time. So I'm not going to say it grow in this area and that area, because you don't know what's happening in 100 years. But I would --
  • Anne Millar
    Sorry. Not in 100 years. At its centennial. So I guess it is still aways away.
  • Anita Layton
    What year are you talking about?
  • Anne Millar
    So it's 2057. So in 2057. The university is starting to kind of --
  • Anita Layton
    Oh, that's still a lot.
  • Anne Millar
    It is still a long time, yes.
  • Anita Layton
    That's a very long time. That's 37 -- 35 years away. Okay. That's still a long time. So I don't know what is hot in terms of science in 35 years, right? That's more than half of my lifetime. I will say I want the -- let's just talk about my faculty. I want my faculty to be known not just -- or the university -- not just for its co-op program. I want it to be known for research. That's what I've been trying to do as their Associate Dean for Research. I don't want anybody to be calling Waterloo as a trade school that trains very good undergrads. I want its grad students -- grad education to be known as world class. I want a lot more recognition for our research. And I want my faculty to be known for something like mathematics happens here or something like that. Right? So I want the first thought to be excellent research.
  • Education is important. But you're asking me for my bias. So my bias -- you know, my bias is research. I will freely admit that. Everybody has their priorities, which is not to say other things aren't important. We've done very well in terms of undergrad education. I want the other leg or other corners of the faculty to get the recognition that it deserves as well. I mean, a lot of people at Waterloo do very good research. But getting the recognition or ranking or whatever isn't a one-day thing. You have to have the goods, but then you have to somehow make sure that people seize it. And that part is not always easy. It takes a few years.
  • Anita Layton
    But how it's communicated to the to the world, really.
  • Anne Millar
    Yeah, exactly.
  • Anita Layton
    Yes. So would that be then how to achieve that would be through communication, through promotion of faculty?
  • Anne Millar
    Yeah, you have to promote your faculty member, organize things so people think of you as, oh, interesting research happens here. There are a lot to do. Outreach, whatever. Like, I don't know. So many things.
  • Anita Layton
    Thank you. I'd love to get your -- just your input quickly on this project. So how important you believe it to be that stories such as yours are recorded and preserved.
  • Anne Millar
    I think it's an interesting thing to do because stories like that, you can learn a lot about the university itself from different people's perspective, because I assume you got faculty members or other people in the Waterloo community that have different backgrounds. So we all -- I mean, we're looking at the same university, but from different angles. And we get different impressions from a university. And I think it's really the union of everybody's opinion that you get the true sense of what the University of Waterloo is and where it should go. Right? I just told you what I think. I'm sure you ask somebody else in math or engineering or somebody else or yourself, for instance, you have a better idea. So I believe in diversity. So it's this diversity of opinion, ideas that can tell you what you should be doing.
  • Anita Layton
    Yes. Amazing. Is there anyone you would recommend we interview for the project?
  • Anne Millar
    Oh. I don't know what you have interviewed -- who you have interviewed. So send me the list. I can tell you.
  • Anita Layton
    I guess maybe someone in your faculty that stands out that maybe has an experience that's distinct to Waterloo or could shed light on something about Waterloo.
  • Anne Millar
    Who have you talked to in Math?
  • Anita Layton
    So right now, you're our person, kind of. I know you likely kind of have bridged multiple fields, so you can speak for different parts of the university. But this is the pilot project. So this, we've done -- we'll do -- we started with six. But now we're up to, I believe, nine interviews. And then for Phase 2, we're making a second list.
  • Anne Millar
    I see. Okay. I'll think about it. So maybe the other person can be somebody who's worked here for a long time, much longer than I have. Right? Then you get a different perspective. And that person can tell you how the university has changed or how the faculty has changed. So let me think about that and get back to you.
  • Anita Layton
    We’re speaking to students as well because of course that perspective is --
  • Anne Millar
    Yeah. Yeah. Of course. Of course. Yeah.
  • Anita Layton
    Any thoughts, final thoughts or ideas that you'd like to leave us with before we say goodbye?
  • Anne Millar
    No. This has been a wonderful experience. Thank you so much.
  • Anita Layton
    Thank you. Thank you so much for your time, especially at this busy time of year.
  • Anne Millar
    No problem. Thank you. Bye.
  • Anita Layton
    You take care. Bye.